Argentina has been awesome late the whole tournament. When it was 1-0 and England pulled back into a shell, I remember thinking that Argentina had them right where they wanted them.
To be clear, in cricket, except in extraordinary circumstances (don't even think about it), you can't change bowlers except at the end of an over (in fact, a different bowler bowls the next over, but from the other end). An over is only six balls, except for situations where wides or no balls are bowled, which technically can make an over infinite and no, you can't change bowlers while that is going on. Even without wides or no balls, the batting team can score as many as 36 runs in a single over. Rare, but overs in the 20s happen all the time.
Lifelong England fan here and yep we were all thinking it. Tuchel was bought in specifically to be the brave manager who would make the big decisions, and he failed in the precise moment he was hired to succeed in, I’m sure there’s an ancient Greek poem or play about this somewhere
But it was also an all of England failure, we just aren’t brave enough on the ball, there were a couple of times, one with Kane in his own box where they tried to be brave, nearly lost it and the whole team saw that and panicked, this has been happening with England team’s my whole life, until we get a midfielder or three that have the courage to put their foot on the ball in tight spaces and play the simple pass we will keep losing these games, seeing as we didn’t have that player we needed pace on the wings, probably by removing Kane to threaten them on the break, but we did the opposite, the most infuriating loss of my lifetime, we’ve been cheated before, we’ve lost heroically before but this was like 2018 but worse, in 2018 we knew the only way Croatia would win was Modric and Rakitic controlling midfield and the obvious answer was to change from the 4-2-4 that got us through the tournament to a 4-3-3 but Southgate lacked the wit to do it, Tuchel was bought in to be the anti-Southgate and to make that decision but when the time came he caught the England disease and all the players reverted to the failures from years gone by
Now we are well and truly die an early exit from a tournament, this run of semis and finals is not normal, so we’re not 4 years from our next chance, we’re 8 years away at least
I am sick to death of "Insult Comic" type British journalism. (See Meghan Markle criticism). I quit reading the papers when I lived in London - just relentlessly, childishly negative.
But I think Joe and readers will get a smile from this headline in The Independent "Argentina players privately stunned by Thomas Tuchel’s defensive approach to World Cup semi-final".
It reminded me of the Spurs meltdown versus the Knicks - play your best patient offense,
control the ball in those sports that allow it. With the Hydration Breaks, the England coach even had a (not normal) time out to change tactics. And he didn't.
Still, just like in Nov 2022, Messi in the World Cup Final is must see TV. And yes, like most Americans, I would change a lot of soccer rules if I was President of FIFA - but I'm not corrupt enough for that evil job.
These scenario's remind me of the '97 WS Game 7. Brian Anderson - Cleveland LHRP - shut down the Marlins in the 8th - Cleveland up 2-1. Watching on TV, he had really frustrated the Marlins hitters. Thinking he was on a roll, everyone thought he might be called back for the 9th. Nope. Jose Mesa ... who did not have near as good a series, was the closer. Marlins tie it up in the bottom of the ninth, go on to win it in 11th. Charles Nagy (a starter) was on the mound for that debacle in the 11th. To his credit, he almost caught the high chopper which drove in the winning run. Marlins won.
This strategy consistently drives me crazy. In this year’s NHL playoffs, Utah had a third period lead in 3 of their 4 losses to Vegas. They sat back and played like they were on the penalty kill the entire time, Vegas kept scoring. If they stay aggressive, they probably win that series.
I actually went to a British pub with Joe, Margo and others, after a book signing. When I lived there, I also had the experience of watching the World Series at 3 am. But my Cardinals won that year, and I got to America to watch Games 6 and 7. It's nice that Joe admits that seemingly simple sports are very, very hard. That said, I'm sure that the ugly, ugly British press is making fun of the entire English team employees (down to the equipment manager, a la Ted Lasso) for what Joe and Margo correctly call the wrong strategy. The famous Barcelona Messi teams and the Spanish 2010 World Cup Champs were masters of the short pass to keep possession. In re Time of Possession, world football/soccer is a lot like American football/UFC fighting in that "You can't score when you ain't got the ball". However, turnovers in soccer are normal and expected, and not the dramatic event that they are in American football. (A great sport except for all the maiming.) England for sure needed some sort of subs and plans to simply control the ball. And for sure, England was lucky that more of those Messi crossing passes didn't get put in. The English goalie played out of his mind, but the English defense just couldn't get the ball back to their side. A true soccer fan wants to see the GOAT, Lionel Messi go out with a second WC win, as does much of the world, and all of Italy. (Leo is Italian heritage, as is a large percentage of Argentina.) In this case Joe, the seemingly simple answer is absolutely correct.
The problem is that England don’t produce players who can help the ball in tight spaces and with that ref refusing to blow his whistle we didn’t have the option of playing for free kicks either
England is great at developing pacy wingers, old school box to box midfielders who play with pace and power arriving late in the box to score goals and the last ten years have become really good, too good, at developing number tens who can play behind the striker and unpick a defence
But as long as I’ve been alive we’ve never been able to develop a number 6 type midfielder, no Rodris, no Kantes no Pirlos or Modric types who can put their foot on the ball and control the game and set the tempo, until St George’s Park learns how to find a talented 12-14 year old and sit him in midfield instead of in the box or on the wing we’re going to keep having this problem
Also, the country as a football culture doesn’t respect those players. Carrick was the closest we’ve had and he spent the golden generation years on the bench watching a Gerard or Lampard trying to do his job when it didn’t come naturally to them
I always think about all the time coaches put in for prep. You used to hear stories about Gunther Cunningham working 20 hour days during football season. Gunther never figured out how to handle time outs at the end of a half. I am sure Tuchel has spent a ton of time prepping on strategy, and they lose doing something that even a casual fan can understand makes no sense.
The ironic part is that Pedro broke Posada's bat, it was weak contact, and would have been an out the vast majority of the time. It just found some grass.
As for last night, yet another reason it made little sense is that Argentina has the oldest team in the field and had played 120 minutes in 2 of the 3 KO matches. England have the world's best striker at dropping deep to collect the ball and then playing a long diagonal pass to a winger. England had Gordon on one side and could easily have brought on Rashford or Saka to have pace and fresh legs on the other side.
Full credit to Argentina. Obviously, Messi is an incredible player, and they played with incredible tenacity throughout. That game was there for England, and they spit the bit.
So, I was at work, and the game was on in our lunchroom, and I knew England was up, 1-0, with maybe 12 minutes left. Like everyone else in the room, I assumed that England's defense would pulverize Messi, and then on to Spain. That they wouldn't attack at all seemed ridiculous, though. That's like running three quarterback sneaks with 5 minutes left, and hoping for a perfect punt.
I'm thinking too of the 2020 NLCS, the Blake Snell game, when Cash pulled him after 6 when he was dominating the Dodgers. Kinda the reverse of this situation, but the the same in that everyone watching knew that this was the one way that Tampa could lose the game, 'cept for the manager...
I don't think i've ever seen a team unable to get possession/control of the ball for as long as England went in that 2nd half. It was like watching a kids game of "keep away".
To me, the funniest part of that Snell situation how the announcers automatically put it down to analytics (I guess because Rays?) and spent the rest of the inning (and then after the disaster happened) talking about that being the reason for the move.
It wasn't. It was a push button move because of a platitude that - in general - hitters did better against pitchers the 3rd time through. Cash was just pushing a button. Never mind the fact that Snell was cruising and had only thrown 73 pitches or that it was his last game of the season. (It was actually game 6 of the World Series) Never mind the fact that during the season, pitchers had actually done slightly better the 3rd time through. Never mind that Snell had been better the third time than the second time both that year and in 2019, or that Mookie himself did worse the 3rd time against a starter in 2020 than the 2nd time (and in his career).
The biggest thing he ignored was the Mookie split that year. Mookie destroyed right handed pitching (1.061 OPS) in 2020 and struggled against lefties like Snell (.531). But it is the traditional button push to go RHP against a right hander as well, so Cash, panicking, pushed that comfortable button as well and ignored the more specific analytics and how his pitcher was throwing and everything else and did it anyway. Defying any analysis.
Then, (to this day, even) people shrugged their shoulders and said "Analytics".
As an English football fan, I have watched a lot more football than Joe and a million times less than Tuchel. I am fairly sure that Joe is right and Tuchel was wrong.
The strange thing is that football has changed. 40 years ago that was normal, just defending was the usual strategy. But now, teams normally try to double their lead, because a) it's hard for the other team to equalise without the ball, b) it's hard for them to equalise when the ball's at the other end of the field, c) it's hard for them to equalise when they're two behind. So, yesterday was very surprising.
I have no idea how many times I have heard a coach say "We had our game plan, and we stuck to it." But when a coach is, for instance, invading Russia in winter, then I would like to hear "We had our game plan. It was terrible! So we just made up a new plan."
My gf is a very casual hockey fan and is annoyed when the goalie comes out too far to make plays on the puck to start the offense. It leaves the goal wide open, and too much can go wrong.
So it was funny when USMNT pretty much sealed their loss to Belgium when that happened.
It's funny, because I am a die Red Sox fan and was in Belgium for that game and my buddy and I found an all-night sports bar showing the game, and we were sitting with a gentleman from India, who was saying the same thing, "why do they leave that man in the game?" Also, I could be mistaken, but we were watching the Armed Forces feed and I could have sworn that Rick Sutcliff4e said on that broadcast something along the lines of, "I can't believe Pedro is still in. The only hope is that the next line drive is right at someone."
You know, I don't think he panicked. I think he honestly thought, "Pedro is my best, and I am going to ride or die with my best." He was wrong, and that one decision ended his managerial career.
Ended his career with Boston, but the Dodgers made him their manager in 2006 and 2007. (Fun fact: Lowe, Mueller, and Nomar were on those teams.) He finished second and then fourth and never managed again.
The ironic things is that most managers seem to panic and make TOO MANY moves (I have to DO SOMETHING!), while Grady did just the opposite. Froze, I guess.
Argentina has been awesome late the whole tournament. When it was 1-0 and England pulled back into a shell, I remember thinking that Argentina had them right where they wanted them.
To be clear, in cricket, except in extraordinary circumstances (don't even think about it), you can't change bowlers except at the end of an over (in fact, a different bowler bowls the next over, but from the other end). An over is only six balls, except for situations where wides or no balls are bowled, which technically can make an over infinite and no, you can't change bowlers while that is going on. Even without wides or no balls, the batting team can score as many as 36 runs in a single over. Rare, but overs in the 20s happen all the time.
Yeah, the only thing I understood about your paragraph were the words "To be clear". :)
I like to imagine Rick is just making stuff up and hoping no one calls him on it.
Lifelong England fan here and yep we were all thinking it. Tuchel was bought in specifically to be the brave manager who would make the big decisions, and he failed in the precise moment he was hired to succeed in, I’m sure there’s an ancient Greek poem or play about this somewhere
But it was also an all of England failure, we just aren’t brave enough on the ball, there were a couple of times, one with Kane in his own box where they tried to be brave, nearly lost it and the whole team saw that and panicked, this has been happening with England team’s my whole life, until we get a midfielder or three that have the courage to put their foot on the ball in tight spaces and play the simple pass we will keep losing these games, seeing as we didn’t have that player we needed pace on the wings, probably by removing Kane to threaten them on the break, but we did the opposite, the most infuriating loss of my lifetime, we’ve been cheated before, we’ve lost heroically before but this was like 2018 but worse, in 2018 we knew the only way Croatia would win was Modric and Rakitic controlling midfield and the obvious answer was to change from the 4-2-4 that got us through the tournament to a 4-3-3 but Southgate lacked the wit to do it, Tuchel was bought in to be the anti-Southgate and to make that decision but when the time came he caught the England disease and all the players reverted to the failures from years gone by
Now we are well and truly die an early exit from a tournament, this run of semis and finals is not normal, so we’re not 4 years from our next chance, we’re 8 years away at least
I am sick to death of "Insult Comic" type British journalism. (See Meghan Markle criticism). I quit reading the papers when I lived in London - just relentlessly, childishly negative.
But I think Joe and readers will get a smile from this headline in The Independent "Argentina players privately stunned by Thomas Tuchel’s defensive approach to World Cup semi-final".
It reminded me of the Spurs meltdown versus the Knicks - play your best patient offense,
control the ball in those sports that allow it. With the Hydration Breaks, the England coach even had a (not normal) time out to change tactics. And he didn't.
Still, just like in Nov 2022, Messi in the World Cup Final is must see TV. And yes, like most Americans, I would change a lot of soccer rules if I was President of FIFA - but I'm not corrupt enough for that evil job.
These scenario's remind me of the '97 WS Game 7. Brian Anderson - Cleveland LHRP - shut down the Marlins in the 8th - Cleveland up 2-1. Watching on TV, he had really frustrated the Marlins hitters. Thinking he was on a roll, everyone thought he might be called back for the 9th. Nope. Jose Mesa ... who did not have near as good a series, was the closer. Marlins tie it up in the bottom of the ninth, go on to win it in 11th. Charles Nagy (a starter) was on the mound for that debacle in the 11th. To his credit, he almost caught the high chopper which drove in the winning run. Marlins won.
This strategy consistently drives me crazy. In this year’s NHL playoffs, Utah had a third period lead in 3 of their 4 losses to Vegas. They sat back and played like they were on the penalty kill the entire time, Vegas kept scoring. If they stay aggressive, they probably win that series.
I actually went to a British pub with Joe, Margo and others, after a book signing. When I lived there, I also had the experience of watching the World Series at 3 am. But my Cardinals won that year, and I got to America to watch Games 6 and 7. It's nice that Joe admits that seemingly simple sports are very, very hard. That said, I'm sure that the ugly, ugly British press is making fun of the entire English team employees (down to the equipment manager, a la Ted Lasso) for what Joe and Margo correctly call the wrong strategy. The famous Barcelona Messi teams and the Spanish 2010 World Cup Champs were masters of the short pass to keep possession. In re Time of Possession, world football/soccer is a lot like American football/UFC fighting in that "You can't score when you ain't got the ball". However, turnovers in soccer are normal and expected, and not the dramatic event that they are in American football. (A great sport except for all the maiming.) England for sure needed some sort of subs and plans to simply control the ball. And for sure, England was lucky that more of those Messi crossing passes didn't get put in. The English goalie played out of his mind, but the English defense just couldn't get the ball back to their side. A true soccer fan wants to see the GOAT, Lionel Messi go out with a second WC win, as does much of the world, and all of Italy. (Leo is Italian heritage, as is a large percentage of Argentina.) In this case Joe, the seemingly simple answer is absolutely correct.
The problem is that England don’t produce players who can help the ball in tight spaces and with that ref refusing to blow his whistle we didn’t have the option of playing for free kicks either
England is great at developing pacy wingers, old school box to box midfielders who play with pace and power arriving late in the box to score goals and the last ten years have become really good, too good, at developing number tens who can play behind the striker and unpick a defence
But as long as I’ve been alive we’ve never been able to develop a number 6 type midfielder, no Rodris, no Kantes no Pirlos or Modric types who can put their foot on the ball and control the game and set the tempo, until St George’s Park learns how to find a talented 12-14 year old and sit him in midfield instead of in the box or on the wing we’re going to keep having this problem
Also, the country as a football culture doesn’t respect those players. Carrick was the closest we’ve had and he spent the golden generation years on the bench watching a Gerard or Lampard trying to do his job when it didn’t come naturally to them
Infuriating
I always think about all the time coaches put in for prep. You used to hear stories about Gunther Cunningham working 20 hour days during football season. Gunther never figured out how to handle time outs at the end of a half. I am sure Tuchel has spent a ton of time prepping on strategy, and they lose doing something that even a casual fan can understand makes no sense.
The ironic part is that Pedro broke Posada's bat, it was weak contact, and would have been an out the vast majority of the time. It just found some grass.
As for last night, yet another reason it made little sense is that Argentina has the oldest team in the field and had played 120 minutes in 2 of the 3 KO matches. England have the world's best striker at dropping deep to collect the ball and then playing a long diagonal pass to a winger. England had Gordon on one side and could easily have brought on Rashford or Saka to have pace and fresh legs on the other side.
Full credit to Argentina. Obviously, Messi is an incredible player, and they played with incredible tenacity throughout. That game was there for England, and they spit the bit.
So, I was at work, and the game was on in our lunchroom, and I knew England was up, 1-0, with maybe 12 minutes left. Like everyone else in the room, I assumed that England's defense would pulverize Messi, and then on to Spain. That they wouldn't attack at all seemed ridiculous, though. That's like running three quarterback sneaks with 5 minutes left, and hoping for a perfect punt.
I'm thinking too of the 2020 NLCS, the Blake Snell game, when Cash pulled him after 6 when he was dominating the Dodgers. Kinda the reverse of this situation, but the the same in that everyone watching knew that this was the one way that Tampa could lose the game, 'cept for the manager...
I don't think i've ever seen a team unable to get possession/control of the ball for as long as England went in that 2nd half. It was like watching a kids game of "keep away".
To me, the funniest part of that Snell situation how the announcers automatically put it down to analytics (I guess because Rays?) and spent the rest of the inning (and then after the disaster happened) talking about that being the reason for the move.
It wasn't. It was a push button move because of a platitude that - in general - hitters did better against pitchers the 3rd time through. Cash was just pushing a button. Never mind the fact that Snell was cruising and had only thrown 73 pitches or that it was his last game of the season. (It was actually game 6 of the World Series) Never mind the fact that during the season, pitchers had actually done slightly better the 3rd time through. Never mind that Snell had been better the third time than the second time both that year and in 2019, or that Mookie himself did worse the 3rd time against a starter in 2020 than the 2nd time (and in his career).
The biggest thing he ignored was the Mookie split that year. Mookie destroyed right handed pitching (1.061 OPS) in 2020 and struggled against lefties like Snell (.531). But it is the traditional button push to go RHP against a right hander as well, so Cash, panicking, pushed that comfortable button as well and ignored the more specific analytics and how his pitcher was throwing and everything else and did it anyway. Defying any analysis.
Then, (to this day, even) people shrugged their shoulders and said "Analytics".
Great post. I didn't know any of that data. And I still hated the move.
As an English football fan, I have watched a lot more football than Joe and a million times less than Tuchel. I am fairly sure that Joe is right and Tuchel was wrong.
The strange thing is that football has changed. 40 years ago that was normal, just defending was the usual strategy. But now, teams normally try to double their lead, because a) it's hard for the other team to equalise without the ball, b) it's hard for them to equalise when the ball's at the other end of the field, c) it's hard for them to equalise when they're two behind. So, yesterday was very surprising.
I have no idea how many times I have heard a coach say "We had our game plan, and we stuck to it." But when a coach is, for instance, invading Russia in winter, then I would like to hear "We had our game plan. It was terrible! So we just made up a new plan."
Read elsewhere:
The best way to protect a 1-0 lead is to make it a 2-0 lead.
But the way I hear it, a 2-0 is the most dangerous situation of all, you've cornered a beast and it has nothing to lose!
Source: I was half-listening to the TV a few weeks ago.
Must NEEDS stay on The Attack, both in Warfare & competitive Sports!!
And then he kept up the prevent D after Argentina scored and tied it up. Too bad for England as their 60 year drought continues!
My gf is a very casual hockey fan and is annoyed when the goalie comes out too far to make plays on the puck to start the offense. It leaves the goal wide open, and too much can go wrong.
So it was funny when USMNT pretty much sealed their loss to Belgium when that happened.
It's funny, because I am a die Red Sox fan and was in Belgium for that game and my buddy and I found an all-night sports bar showing the game, and we were sitting with a gentleman from India, who was saying the same thing, "why do they leave that man in the game?" Also, I could be mistaken, but we were watching the Armed Forces feed and I could have sworn that Rick Sutcliff4e said on that broadcast something along the lines of, "I can't believe Pedro is still in. The only hope is that the next line drive is right at someone."
Grady panicked, no doubt. I coached youth sport for 15 years and panicked multiple times, and it always resulted in terrible decisions.
You know, I don't think he panicked. I think he honestly thought, "Pedro is my best, and I am going to ride or die with my best." He was wrong, and that one decision ended his managerial career.
I think he panicked because I've done the same in situations with a fraction of the pressure he faced. The result has always been idiocy by me.
Ended his career with Boston, but the Dodgers made him their manager in 2006 and 2007. (Fun fact: Lowe, Mueller, and Nomar were on those teams.) He finished second and then fourth and never managed again.
The ironic things is that most managers seem to panic and make TOO MANY moves (I have to DO SOMETHING!), while Grady did just the opposite. Froze, I guess.