I’ve seen Messi in person 3 times now since he moved to Inter Miami. In those 3 games, the goal tally is Nathan Ordaz 2, Leo Messi 0. Can’t predict ball.
It would be like Jim Kelly’s (John Elway's) Buffalo Bills (Denver Broncos) winning three (two) Super Bowls in a row after their four Super Bowl losses.
After going 2-0 in the 1995 ALDS for the Mariners, from then until the 2001 NLCS, Randy Johnson was 0-2 in the 1995 ALCS, 0-1 in the 1997 ALDS, 0-2 in the 1998 NLDS (for the Astros; mind you, his ERA was 1.93 over 14 innings), 0-1 in the 1999 NLDS for the DBacks and 0-1 in the 2001 NLDS. He then won five straight in the NLCS and WS that year (and never won another playoff game).
Glad you mentioned Messi’s second goal, you are taught from 6 years old to follow every shot in case the keeper spills it but it’s amazing how even at the top level how it’s usually only the very best players who capitalise on it, plus the way he caressed the ball into the net really was beautiful
I only have a single experience where i was at a live event and saw a player dominate like Joe describes here. The cant take your eyes off him kind of show. It happened in an obscure game in a small Canadian city. As you might imagine I was at a hocky game for the Lethbridge Hurricanes in the WHL, which is junior hockey. Generally ages 17-20 and along with the leagues in Ontario and Quebec the primary(at least at that time) feeder leagues for NHL draft picks.
I had just moved to the city for university and was at my first game. I didnt know a single thing about either team and was sitting there with my girlfriend kind of looking around at the rink and generally not paying a ton of attention to the game. Then I noticed the player. I would say he was a man amongst boys but really he was a boy amongst men as one of the younger players in the game and draft eligible. Patrick Marleau was undeniable. He seemed bigger, faster, more skilled, smarter, and just generally twice as awesome anybody else in the game. I guess when you get drafted second overall and play in the NHL for 20 years you should run circles around a bunch of random 18 and 19 year olds but I still remember the sit straight up in your chair, who was that, kind of awe that dominance of your peer group can generate.
What gets me about Messi is not just the amazing goals. It’s also the passes he makes that no one else would even think of much less see. I’ll be sad when he finally retires.
Messi is one of those rare athletes whose legend completely transcend his sport. I am just old enough to be in the generation before youth Soccer was a thing in the U.S. We didn't play it. We didn't watch it. There were no Soccer balls available at grade school recess. There were no World cup matches on US TV. You might get a few highlights on Wide World of Sports on Saturday afternoons. But we all knew who Pele was.
There are a few athletes since like that. I would argue that Gretzky was known in non Hockey watching countries. Michael Jordan was definitely world wide (but then again, basketball kind of is as well.) There are a couple of football players that may have been known worldwide despite being in a largely American sport.
Messi is one of those guys. My mother-in-law is 91. She has never watched a match, and couldn't pick out a Soccer ball in a lineup with a kickball and volley ball. But she knows who Messi is.
It’s hard to remember some of these things in hindsight, but here are a few possibilities of guys not mentioned who probably were around Messi’s level in their respective sports:
- Barry Bonds had three ugly playoff series from 1990-92. Not much better in 1997 or 2000 but he was winning MVPs by then. His 2002 postseason was altogether different though the Giants lost the WS. So much of his reputation is tied up in PEDs and his churlish persona that it’s hard to separate from his reputation as a player. But by the end I don’t think anyone much remembered his early career postseason failures.
- Michael Jordan had those three seasons in the late 1980’s where the Pistons eliminated the Bulls. Was his reputation at that point somewhat tilted toward the guy who puts up numbers but can’t carry a team to a title? Not that he personally was responsible for playoff losses, just that his numbers weren’t enough.
- Several hockey players who lived somewhat in the shadow of Wayne Gretzky. Mario Lemieux in his first handful of seasons - at least before the 1987 Canada Cup and probably before winning two Stanley Cups. A fair number of hockey fans had a dim view of Sidney Crosby in his early years. Ovechkin before 2018 might also fit. Maybe McDavid now?
Then there was the greatest athlete of all time (if you judge it by comparison with peers) Don Bradman. The Australian cricketer who played the role of Babe Ruth in our culture at the same time, his batting average was 99.94 (he made zero in his last ever innings when he needed 4 to average 100, he was given a guard of honour by the opposition as he walked out to bat and legend as it he had tears in his eyes when he got out) when the second best average ever is 60 and the very truly elite players average 50
One other note, the postcode (our zip codes) for the National broadcaster the ABC here in Australia is 9994 in honour of Bradman
I only saw Leo live once. It was a 2009 friendly featuring Barcelona versus Chivas Guadalajara. It ended 1-1 and Messi did not score. Nevertheless, it was impossible to take your eyes off him. My strongest memory was of Leo surrounded by three Chivas defenders and eluding them all. I remarked to my son that Messi could get open inside a telephone booth.
As an aside, I was startled to arrive to the sight of thousands of fans wearing shirts, jerseys,sweaters, etc. emblazoned BIMBO. Turns out be the name of the Mexican bakery company that sponsored Chivas. Grupo Bimbo is the largest U.S. bakery through brands such as Arnold, Levy's, Ball Park, Colombo, Francisco, Oroweat, Entenmann's, Sara Lee, and Thomas.
"I have been trying to think of an athlete who turned around a negative reputation as completely as Messi has."
The closest analog I can think of is Michael Jordan. For the first 6-7 years of his career (however many he played before his first title), he was viewed as a great individual talent but "selfish" and a "loser," in contrast with the great superstar winners of his time, Magic, Bird and Isaiah. But, of course, once he and Pippen began winning championships, his reputation as a winner changed 180 degrees and now he's viewed as one of the most implacable winners of all-time and most people probably don't recall or have no idea that he was ever viewed any other way.
I'm still on a Knicks high, so excuse me if I'm overblowing this, but Jalen Brunson comes closest to Messi as being order amidst chaos. He didn't have a bad reputation, he had almost no reputation judging by how so many talking heads dismissed him as a number 1 option.
His small stature and the way he just finds angles and emerges with the ball or a good look at the hoop amidst a sea of guys a foot taller than him. A buddy of mine described Messi as playing on an off beat. He made moves or let a shot fly or tapped a perfect pass just out of rhythm with the defenders around him. He said he found space between the beats other players usually play on.
Brunson too. Maybe it's his left handedness, though there are other lefties. He finds space to slip a lay up past Wemby or has a half step hesitation that disrupts the defenders timing and footwork.
If I remember correctly he looked up to Steve Nash. Nash had a quick release off the same foot that messed up the defenders timing. He too is an undersized PG and by all indications a pretty good soccer player.
Every four years the USA catches futbol fever. But thankfully the malady doesn't last too long and we get over it. The rest of the sports world remains afflicted with this chronic ailment.
Someone once asked Mexico and Real Madrid striker Hugo Sanchez why he did a backflip after he scored -- it was his signature post-scoring move -- and he said something like, "We work all week to make this happen, and I'm the one who is lucky to put the ball in the net, so the celebration comes from all that work." Sanchez probably said it better than that...it's been ages since I saw the interview. But, to use Joe's analogy, when all the work behind the trick happens -- the magician deserves to take a bow.
There's another way to look at the hat trick...and I'm going to play contrarian: On the first goal, the keeper gets a lot of his hand on the ball, and a better keeper, would have pushed it over the bar or wide of the post. Maybe. It's a good shot, but Jordan Pickford, Thibault Courtois -- they might make that save -- nothing against Zidane's son. I'd pay a penny for Tim Howard's thoughts or Rob Green on Fox, or Joe Hart, who's doing studio stuff with the BBC.
Then there's the moment in the 30th minute, when Messi raked his foot down the back of an opponent's leg -- and the debate of "red card, yellow card, VAR, nothing???" began. But it was just a foul...and if it's not given, it's not given...
So:
On the second goal, Zidane gets down and intends to smother it and doesn't and leaves as rebound at the penalty spot. Hockey goalies talk about never leaving a rebound in the slot -- and that's what happened here. If you intend to smother it -- you must smother it. You don't -- and someone will clean up the mess by putting the ball into the net.
Zidane Elder is going to headbutt me if he reads this...
It was in many ways just a wonderful day to admire the artistry of many of the top attacking players in the world (Michael Olise!!!) ... and Romano Schmid ...and that youngster Ibrahim Mbaye. So many moments, goals, passes, saves, last ditch blocks, tears of joy. Well, despite the mighty efforts of Gianni & friends to ruin this tournament, so many rays of sunshine have made it through the clouds.
I’ve seen Messi in person 3 times now since he moved to Inter Miami. In those 3 games, the goal tally is Nathan Ordaz 2, Leo Messi 0. Can’t predict ball.
I really don't care for soccer. I was thrilled when both of my children dropped soccer in favor of tennis in high school.
That said ... I can appreciate the artistry and magic of Messi. You don't need to like the sport to acknowledge his brilliance.
It would be like Jim Kelly’s (John Elway's) Buffalo Bills (Denver Broncos) winning three (two) Super Bowls in a row after their four Super Bowl losses.
After going 2-0 in the 1995 ALDS for the Mariners, from then until the 2001 NLCS, Randy Johnson was 0-2 in the 1995 ALCS, 0-1 in the 1997 ALDS, 0-2 in the 1998 NLDS (for the Astros; mind you, his ERA was 1.93 over 14 innings), 0-1 in the 1999 NLDS for the DBacks and 0-1 in the 2001 NLDS. He then won five straight in the NLCS and WS that year (and never won another playoff game).
Glad you mentioned Messi’s second goal, you are taught from 6 years old to follow every shot in case the keeper spills it but it’s amazing how even at the top level how it’s usually only the very best players who capitalise on it, plus the way he caressed the ball into the net really was beautiful
I only have a single experience where i was at a live event and saw a player dominate like Joe describes here. The cant take your eyes off him kind of show. It happened in an obscure game in a small Canadian city. As you might imagine I was at a hocky game for the Lethbridge Hurricanes in the WHL, which is junior hockey. Generally ages 17-20 and along with the leagues in Ontario and Quebec the primary(at least at that time) feeder leagues for NHL draft picks.
I had just moved to the city for university and was at my first game. I didnt know a single thing about either team and was sitting there with my girlfriend kind of looking around at the rink and generally not paying a ton of attention to the game. Then I noticed the player. I would say he was a man amongst boys but really he was a boy amongst men as one of the younger players in the game and draft eligible. Patrick Marleau was undeniable. He seemed bigger, faster, more skilled, smarter, and just generally twice as awesome anybody else in the game. I guess when you get drafted second overall and play in the NHL for 20 years you should run circles around a bunch of random 18 and 19 year olds but I still remember the sit straight up in your chair, who was that, kind of awe that dominance of your peer group can generate.
What gets me about Messi is not just the amazing goals. It’s also the passes he makes that no one else would even think of much less see. I’ll be sad when he finally retires.
Messi is one of those rare athletes whose legend completely transcend his sport. I am just old enough to be in the generation before youth Soccer was a thing in the U.S. We didn't play it. We didn't watch it. There were no Soccer balls available at grade school recess. There were no World cup matches on US TV. You might get a few highlights on Wide World of Sports on Saturday afternoons. But we all knew who Pele was.
There are a few athletes since like that. I would argue that Gretzky was known in non Hockey watching countries. Michael Jordan was definitely world wide (but then again, basketball kind of is as well.) There are a couple of football players that may have been known worldwide despite being in a largely American sport.
Messi is one of those guys. My mother-in-law is 91. She has never watched a match, and couldn't pick out a Soccer ball in a lineup with a kickball and volley ball. But she knows who Messi is.
It’s hard to remember some of these things in hindsight, but here are a few possibilities of guys not mentioned who probably were around Messi’s level in their respective sports:
- Barry Bonds had three ugly playoff series from 1990-92. Not much better in 1997 or 2000 but he was winning MVPs by then. His 2002 postseason was altogether different though the Giants lost the WS. So much of his reputation is tied up in PEDs and his churlish persona that it’s hard to separate from his reputation as a player. But by the end I don’t think anyone much remembered his early career postseason failures.
- Michael Jordan had those three seasons in the late 1980’s where the Pistons eliminated the Bulls. Was his reputation at that point somewhat tilted toward the guy who puts up numbers but can’t carry a team to a title? Not that he personally was responsible for playoff losses, just that his numbers weren’t enough.
- Several hockey players who lived somewhat in the shadow of Wayne Gretzky. Mario Lemieux in his first handful of seasons - at least before the 1987 Canada Cup and probably before winning two Stanley Cups. A fair number of hockey fans had a dim view of Sidney Crosby in his early years. Ovechkin before 2018 might also fit. Maybe McDavid now?
Then there was the greatest athlete of all time (if you judge it by comparison with peers) Don Bradman. The Australian cricketer who played the role of Babe Ruth in our culture at the same time, his batting average was 99.94 (he made zero in his last ever innings when he needed 4 to average 100, he was given a guard of honour by the opposition as he walked out to bat and legend as it he had tears in his eyes when he got out) when the second best average ever is 60 and the very truly elite players average 50
One other note, the postcode (our zip codes) for the National broadcaster the ABC here in Australia is 9994 in honour of Bradman
I only saw Leo live once. It was a 2009 friendly featuring Barcelona versus Chivas Guadalajara. It ended 1-1 and Messi did not score. Nevertheless, it was impossible to take your eyes off him. My strongest memory was of Leo surrounded by three Chivas defenders and eluding them all. I remarked to my son that Messi could get open inside a telephone booth.
As an aside, I was startled to arrive to the sight of thousands of fans wearing shirts, jerseys,sweaters, etc. emblazoned BIMBO. Turns out be the name of the Mexican bakery company that sponsored Chivas. Grupo Bimbo is the largest U.S. bakery through brands such as Arnold, Levy's, Ball Park, Colombo, Francisco, Oroweat, Entenmann's, Sara Lee, and Thomas.
"I have been trying to think of an athlete who turned around a negative reputation as completely as Messi has."
The closest analog I can think of is Michael Jordan. For the first 6-7 years of his career (however many he played before his first title), he was viewed as a great individual talent but "selfish" and a "loser," in contrast with the great superstar winners of his time, Magic, Bird and Isaiah. But, of course, once he and Pippen began winning championships, his reputation as a winner changed 180 degrees and now he's viewed as one of the most implacable winners of all-time and most people probably don't recall or have no idea that he was ever viewed any other way.
I'm still on a Knicks high, so excuse me if I'm overblowing this, but Jalen Brunson comes closest to Messi as being order amidst chaos. He didn't have a bad reputation, he had almost no reputation judging by how so many talking heads dismissed him as a number 1 option.
His small stature and the way he just finds angles and emerges with the ball or a good look at the hoop amidst a sea of guys a foot taller than him. A buddy of mine described Messi as playing on an off beat. He made moves or let a shot fly or tapped a perfect pass just out of rhythm with the defenders around him. He said he found space between the beats other players usually play on.
Brunson too. Maybe it's his left handedness, though there are other lefties. He finds space to slip a lay up past Wemby or has a half step hesitation that disrupts the defenders timing and footwork.
If I remember correctly he looked up to Steve Nash. Nash had a quick release off the same foot that messed up the defenders timing. He too is an undersized PG and by all indications a pretty good soccer player.
Every four years the USA catches futbol fever. But thankfully the malady doesn't last too long and we get over it. The rest of the sports world remains afflicted with this chronic ailment.
Someone once asked Mexico and Real Madrid striker Hugo Sanchez why he did a backflip after he scored -- it was his signature post-scoring move -- and he said something like, "We work all week to make this happen, and I'm the one who is lucky to put the ball in the net, so the celebration comes from all that work." Sanchez probably said it better than that...it's been ages since I saw the interview. But, to use Joe's analogy, when all the work behind the trick happens -- the magician deserves to take a bow.
There's another way to look at the hat trick...and I'm going to play contrarian: On the first goal, the keeper gets a lot of his hand on the ball, and a better keeper, would have pushed it over the bar or wide of the post. Maybe. It's a good shot, but Jordan Pickford, Thibault Courtois -- they might make that save -- nothing against Zidane's son. I'd pay a penny for Tim Howard's thoughts or Rob Green on Fox, or Joe Hart, who's doing studio stuff with the BBC.
Then there's the moment in the 30th minute, when Messi raked his foot down the back of an opponent's leg -- and the debate of "red card, yellow card, VAR, nothing???" began. But it was just a foul...and if it's not given, it's not given...
So:
On the second goal, Zidane gets down and intends to smother it and doesn't and leaves as rebound at the penalty spot. Hockey goalies talk about never leaving a rebound in the slot -- and that's what happened here. If you intend to smother it -- you must smother it. You don't -- and someone will clean up the mess by putting the ball into the net.
Zidane Elder is going to headbutt me if he reads this...
The third, well, yeah, that was a ripper.
Well said Joe.
It was in many ways just a wonderful day to admire the artistry of many of the top attacking players in the world (Michael Olise!!!) ... and Romano Schmid ...and that youngster Ibrahim Mbaye. So many moments, goals, passes, saves, last ditch blocks, tears of joy. Well, despite the mighty efforts of Gianni & friends to ruin this tournament, so many rays of sunshine have made it through the clouds.
Enjoy Joe.
"I have been trying to think of an athlete who turned around a negative reputation as completely as Messi has."
LeBron was seen as an un-clutch choker loser in 2011.
And Dirk Nowitzki was seen as a loser *before* 2011.