OK, we’ll give this a shot — our next random JoeBlogs game, Giants at Mets, is about to start. I don’t know exactly how this thread will work, but I’ll keep checking in as the game goes along, maybe offer up a thought or a comment, answer questions, see if I can get a guest or two to check in, we’ll have some fun.
I should tell you that while doing this, I’m also putting the finishing touches on a deep dive I’m very proud of about Dusty Baker and the history of black managers in MLB. That story might very well go up while the game is going on. So we can talk about that too, if you want.
Really … whatever you want. Here we go. Looking really windy in New York. Let’s play ball!
Timing pitches on the Rays v Red Sox game I’m watching and the batter is messing about with his gloves and stuff and is rarely in the box less than 15 seconds after the previous pitch is over (not starting the clock until a foul ball lands) then usually 25-29 seconds before the pitcher starts his wind up
Joe, this was a great idea has to become a regular feature! I don’t know if it can ever get better than this with the Great Miguel Cabrera going for 3k as a 2nd (1st?) feature and one of the commenters getting a HR ball…… but I think we should try. Loved it!
Can I just comment that this was Mets v Giants, and yet the most active thread was still about what the Yankees did (NOT) do in their simultaneous game in which they were SHUT OUT.
That sort of sums up the plight of MetsFan. And GiantsFan for that matter... Possibly a preview of the NLCS and all we talk about is the gd friggin Yankees...
When the Mets are really good they are more interesting and popular than the Yankees. Unfortunately it doesn't happen very often. But see 2015 for example
I think my true point is that the Mets are more popular and interesting than the Yankees only when the Yankees are very bad (ie not good enough for the playoffs- admittedly a pretty high standard, but it IS the Yankees), in addition to the Mets being very good. See early 70s and late 1980s for good examples.
Hypothetical Question: Is it appropriate to root for the Yankees to tie this game in order to ensure Miggy has a chance at karmic payback for the IBB? On the one hand, it'd be rooting for the Yankees to come back. On the other, it means more Miggy.
Fans continue to boo in Detroit and Miggy himself asks them to chill which is nice and all that but those people paid a lot of money to be at that game.
My grandmother was from the Detroit area and I remember, growing up in California in the 80s and 90s, that she would always talk about how they hated the Yankees in Detroit, I suppose even going back to, I don't know, the '30s through the '60s.
Is there any actual rivalry from that long back or is this just a very long-standing (and appropriate) loathing of the Yankees for who they've always been?
I'd say it's both / and. The Yankees and Tigers had a great rivalry in the pre-division era, and Detroit has a pretty massive inferiority complex about New York in general
Does the IBB actually cost them there? Miggy didn't score. It was fun listening to the crowd response, especially the "Yankees suck" chants after the Meadows bloop double.
I mean, if you needed another reason to hate the Yankees -- and you don't -- but they just intentionally walked Miguel Cabrera. They just intentionally walked Miguel Cabrera. I want to repeat, they just intentionally walked Miguel Cabrera.
The Yankees truly do bring us together. My entire family switched over to the Tigers game just in time, and we all communed deeply on how much we hated the Yankees for the move.
Any baseball book recommendations? I am reading Baseball 100 and Pedro Moura's new book and Molly's book is one of my all-time favorites. I assume flattery is welcome here😀
I recently read The Only Rule Is It Has To Work by Ben Lindbergh and Sam Miller, which discussed their stint running an indy league team. I really enjoyed it but I'm a sucker for books about the types who love the game but won't ever sniff the majors.
Joe's Baseball 100 is wonderful. The Last Night of the Yankees Dynasty by Buster Olney probably influenced my reporting more than any other book. The details knock my socks off.
Eric Nusbaum's Stealing Home, which was published a couple of years ago and is about the circumstances surrounding the creation of Dodger Stadium. Not so much about baseball itself but a great read.
Has anyone here read Emily Nemens' book of connected short stories (also marketed as a novel) called The Cactus League? I'd be curious to know what people thought of it.
I liked a lot of it, but there were aspects (I don't want to reveal spoilers) that I found sort of hard to believe since it took place in recent times where it feels unlikely certain things wouldn't be made more public. If that makes any sense.
Carrasco finding his old form is as big a deal for the Mets as Lindor turning back into Lindor. If he can maintain this, it maintains the rotation depth this team needs to contend.
It helps that the Mets broadcasters include Howie Rose and Gary Cohen. Not that I am watching because I don't have cable and not that I am listening because i can't listen and work.
What are they talking about? Did they notice how many people at the game today brought their own food and are eating matzah sandwiches? (There is almost always a day game during the eight days of the holiday that gets a lot of Orthodox families. I haven't attended on in ages.)
I feel like Gary, Keith, and Ron are best when a game is a blowout so they can just chat about random things and reminisce about stories from the past. I just wish it wasn't today against my Giants!
Speaking of Miggy.... who are the for sure hall of famers for this era? I've got Miggy, Pujols, Trout, Scherzer, Kershaw, Posey, Molina, Verlander. Who else am I missing? (Ichiro when he's eligbile)
It’s hard for me not to see Votto. I think Greinke and deGrom will benefit from how much the role of SP’s has changed when it comes to counting stats. Wainwright’s case could be interesting. Speaking of pitchers, if there continues to be a run on relievers, where are guys like Chapman and Kimbrel?
Not sure he'll get there, but it wouldn't shock me if Machado made it. (Brutal for me as a Pirates fan because I've always wondered how the 2013-2015 run would have turned out had they taken Machado over Taillon.)
Are we ever going to have any middle relivers make it in? There are so many now who will never become starters or closers. Seems like that will be a conversation in the next 5-10 years.
The only multiple MVP winners who are eligible for the Hall and are not in it are either tainted by the PED era (Bonds, A-Rod, Juan Gone) or did not do very much outside of the short time when they were elite enough to win two MVPs, Like Dale Murphy and Roger Maris. Everybody else is in.
Murphy was great for most of a span of 8 years, but he earned more than 90% of his modest career ~46 WAR in those seasons, collecting only about 4 WAR total in his 10 other campaigns.
Maris even moreso: He famously won two of the closest MVP votes in history - and he may have even deserved the one he got in 1960! - but only got a few down ballot votes in one other election, and hit ~.255 with ~18 HR per year outside of those two seasons.
Harper may not have been great outside of those two MVP years, but he did also with a RoY award, made four other All-Star games, and has had some good years despite some tough ones. He's still only 29, so there's a long way to go, but he's in good shape I think.
Too early to tell for the others. Freeman, I think not. Dodger stadium will suppress his rate and counting stats for the latter phase of his career. Baseball Reference has Eddie Murray as his closest comp at basically every age, but Murray got a lot more hits. Freeman will have to average ~183/year to match where Murray was at the end of his age 37 season, and he's only once had that many in a season so far in his career. Plus Murray played until he was 41. Hard to know if Freeman will do that.
I disagree about Harper. He's very good, but he's only had one truly great season, and a a couple of deeply mediocre ones. Is there a HOFer who had a season in their prime–after they established themselves–that was as bad as any of Harper's even years?
He had a great year last year by any objective measure. I don't think he's in as it stands - he has a lot of runway in front of him to solidify his case. No doubt one reason he signed the long term deal with Philly was the HOF implication. I think he gets there.
Nobody. Lester might get some votes, but is far from a lock. Bryant needs to return to 2015-17 form. Rizzo has also fallen off and Baez isn’t there either.
I think DeGrom should go in. After just under 200 starts, he has a 2.50 era and 1.01 WHiP. In the expansion era, only Seaver has a lower era, no one has a lower WHiP.
He needs 2-3 more seasons near or at recent levels. At least another 80-100 starts in my book. Body of work too limited. And I say that as Met fan wearing a 48 shirt.
I think 200 starts is a good enough sample size, for someone who has been as great as he has (also a Met fan here) By comparison, after 200 starts, Doc had a 2.85 era, with a career that was trending in the wrong direction. So he hadn't solidified his spot yet, and sadly, never did.
I disagree on 200 starts. Please point to another starter in Hall with 200. Koufax had over 300 and he was more dominant, more post-season, and people still talk about his career being too short. Jake - buddy - please get healthy and make this a moot point!
So for a pitcher to make the hall, he needs 300 starts of Koufax like quality, or he can get in with 390 at Halladay level? But 200 at deGrom level, isn't good enough? I think there's a big difference between the truly elite guys and the guys who were very good to great, but also hung around long enough to compile numbers. Was Tom Glavine really better than deGrom, or is he in the Hall because he pitched 22 seasons? If Glavine belongs in the Hall, and we agree deGrom had a better peak, I don't see how he doesn't also belong.
But at what point did most hall pitchers become guys we thought were worthy of selection? Pedro hit 200 in 2000, ended the season w 211 and a third CYA. Think he was a slam dunk by then. Kershaw reached 200 starts in 2014, also won his 3rd CYA that season. Did he really need any more for fans to say he was a HOFer? Lot of guys go well beyond 200, and pile up other numbers. But how many have a 200 start stretch that they were better than Jacob has been? Not many guys whose career just stops right around 200 starts, who have very good numbers, let alone great.
OK, my thoughts. Trout's a lock if he retires tomorrow for whatever reason. I think Votto is in, but I could see some fights about him -- couldn't call him a "sure" Hall of Famer. Same is true of Greinke -- he's in for me, might not be for others just yet (though he actually has a higher WAR than Scherzer). I don't think there are any you could call "sure" just yet, but Mookie Betts is closing in.
I thought of an approach, that rewards seasons as being 'Hall of Fame' worthy seasons, and then we'd see who ends up with the most seasons that fit the criteria:
Cruz doesn't even have 2000 career hits yet, and might not get the ~75 he needs if he doesn't pick it up a bit in his age 41 season. Took him too long to get going (age 28) so he doesn't have the time to compile HoF numbers. Plus he has a link to PEDs, which is all some voters need to justify ignoring a guy.
What would be worse... bang bang play at first on what could be his 3000th hit:
a) Miggy called out but replay review shows he is safe OR
b) Miggy called safe and replay review shows he is out
Option A you have to wait and you get your 3000th but then somewhat anticlimactic and delayed celebration
Option B you get euphoric celebration only to have Yankees make the now universal headphone signal to challenge and then you feel like you got it only to be taken away
Plus something like this happens, Tigers broadcast automatically go to an endless loop of Armando Galarraga's play at first
I think Option B would be worse. Option A would stink but we've sort of gotten used to delayed reactions in sports because of replay. Having Miggy called safe, seeing the replay, knowing that he would be out, all of that would just stink enormously.
watching this on SNY - GKR team in the booth -best in the bidness. How bout these Mets, huh? Lot to like so far and yes any real Mets Fan has already considered the many many many things that can and will go wrong between now and the end of October but hey, let's revel in what is clearly a well-constructed, well-managed team full of professional Major Leaguers.
Gone are the days of AAAA starters on the field and on the mound. Gone are the days of managers submitting the wrong lineups or being oblivious of their own clubhouse.
Watching Miggy at the plate now going for 3,000 hits is a weird experience because, of course, this is a crescendo to an amazing career and yet, at the same time you know that Cabrera has been a below league average hitter for SIX SEASONS. So while we're watching the great Miguel Cabrera, we're really not. I don't know. Lots of emotions around it.
Adrian Beltre hit .312/.383/.532 with 17 HR in just 94 games the year he got his 3000th. A-Rod had 33 HR and a 129 OPS+ the year he collected his 3000th, though he only hit .250 that season.
Eddie Murray hit .323/.375/.516 with 21 HR and 82 RBI the year he collected his 3000th. That was 1995, the strike shortened year, so his 113 games played were a larger portion of the total that season than it might otherwise appear.
He is off to a better start so far this year, but has been essentially a singles hitter since '17. It's been a joy to be able to watch him in Detroit for the last 15 years.
IF the Tigers pitchers can hold the Yankees he may not get another AB today. But the Rockies come to town tomorrow. At least it (probably) won't happen on the road!
Watching Miggy climb towards 3000 hits makes me think about any ballplayer approaching a big milestone like this. It's really hard to get a hit in the Majors/strike somebody out/etc. but the pressure of the big moment can't help anything like that. Curious about the stories for players who have approached/hit those big numbers - what's going through their heads in the ABs running up to those hits? <insert Castellanos meme here>
Imagine being stuck on 2,999 hits and everyone in the baseball world tuning in to watch your every AB. I'd be pooping my pants. (This is why they do not pay me the big bucks to hit baseballs)
Ugh. Miggy goes down on a checked-swing third strike -- appeal to first. He probably went around. They usually do, but it stinks just the same. It would be a REAL bummer if Miggy doesn't get that 3,000th hit today.
Timing pitches on the Rays v Red Sox game I’m watching and the batter is messing about with his gloves and stuff and is rarely in the box less than 15 seconds after the previous pitch is over (not starting the clock until a foul ball lands) then usually 25-29 seconds before the pitcher starts his wind up
The pitch clock can’t arrive quickly enough
Joe, this was a great idea has to become a regular feature! I don’t know if it can ever get better than this with the Great Miguel Cabrera going for 3k as a 2nd (1st?) feature and one of the commenters getting a HR ball…… but I think we should try. Loved it!
I am reading this now at the Nats game. Nelson Cruz' home run just now was hit an incredibly long way.
Would've loved to follow the thread but I was at the game today 😊
Can I just comment that this was Mets v Giants, and yet the most active thread was still about what the Yankees did (NOT) do in their simultaneous game in which they were SHUT OUT.
That sort of sums up the plight of MetsFan. And GiantsFan for that matter... Possibly a preview of the NLCS and all we talk about is the gd friggin Yankees...
You have to admit, though, that sometimes giving the Yankees a hard time is worth the effort.
But yeah, it will take a lot more than being good for the Mets to gain any traction in NY(ankees)C.
When the Mets are really good they are more interesting and popular than the Yankees. Unfortunately it doesn't happen very often. But see 2015 for example
Oh yes- another good example is the 2000 Mets.... oh wait ;-)
I think my true point is that the Mets are more popular and interesting than the Yankees only when the Yankees are very bad (ie not good enough for the playoffs- admittedly a pretty high standard, but it IS the Yankees), in addition to the Mets being very good. See early 70s and late 1980s for good examples.
Preach brother.
I'm still fuming over Miggy. But this was so much fun! Check back tomorrow to see what the heck will come out of this!
This was so fun y'all! Thanks for having me, Joe.
I enjoy your blog!
Put it in the books!
Aaron Boone needs a stern talking to. Who is going to volunteer
How about that college pitcher who took out the guy who homered off him?
I nominate George Brett
Probably Kirk Gibson
I’ll take solace in the fact the Yankees lost their appeal to keep the Yankees Letter from being made public.
I will take more solace from the Yankees looking incredibly bland so far.
Joe- I like how we are paying you so we can watch baseball with you.... :)
Hypothetical Question: Is it appropriate to root for the Yankees to tie this game in order to ensure Miggy has a chance at karmic payback for the IBB? On the one hand, it'd be rooting for the Yankees to come back. On the other, it means more Miggy.
I'm afraid it is never justified to root for the Yankees. Ever
Fans continue to boo in Detroit and Miggy himself asks them to chill which is nice and all that but those people paid a lot of money to be at that game.
I think everyone will forgive you if you decide to write about something other than Giants-Mets tomorrow.
Especially Giants fans! And I'm always longing for more Giants content from Joe.
They are still booing in Detroit.
My grandmother was from the Detroit area and I remember, growing up in California in the 80s and 90s, that she would always talk about how they hated the Yankees in Detroit, I suppose even going back to, I don't know, the '30s through the '60s.
Is there any actual rivalry from that long back or is this just a very long-standing (and appropriate) loathing of the Yankees for who they've always been?
I'd say it's both / and. The Yankees and Tigers had a great rivalry in the pre-division era, and Detroit has a pretty massive inferiority complex about New York in general
And what are they chanting? I can't make it out.
Yankees suck
Oh – was hoping for something a little more creative.
You will forgive me if my entire JoeBlogs Baseball recap is an homage to Austin Meadows for following up with a two-run single.
Does the IBB actually cost them there? Miggy didn't score. It was fun listening to the crowd response, especially the "Yankees suck" chants after the Meadows bloop double.
Yes we will
I am rooting for the Tigers to bat around
Dastardly
The baseball gods wrath cometh down
Sweet karma
I’ve not rooted for a grand slam so much.
I’ll take a blooper that plates two.
I mean, if you needed another reason to hate the Yankees -- and you don't -- but they just intentionally walked Miguel Cabrera. They just intentionally walked Miguel Cabrera. I want to repeat, they just intentionally walked Miguel Cabrera.
That was outrageous.
The Yankees truly do bring us together. My entire family switched over to the Tigers game just in time, and we all communed deeply on how much we hated the Yankees for the move.
You have to be kidding me.
IBB for Miggy here with 1B open? Where would this fall in Joe’s hierarchy of IBB wrath??
And there it is
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
The Yankees are the worst.
Looking good for getting Miggy one more at-bat today. Let's gooooooooo!!!
If the Yankees don't find a double-play, Miggy is going to get another chance
The Tigers are rallying in the eighth and are trying to give one more 3,000-hit shot to Miggy.
I am relieved that we've had two home runs and yet DeSlafani fought the impulse to tackle either batter. That's a pro right there.
Should we check on Snarffles? That Yaz home run looked like a small spherical missile and seeing that would have scared the hell out of me.
Thanks for your concern! Yaz plunked the scoreboard 4 ft below us. Neighbor also got his hands on a howitzer out of the t-shirt cannon. Crazy day.
Baby Yaz crushed a middle-middle fastball, but Carrasco goes 7 2/3 and was dominant. Mets fans have to be dreaming.
Love that Buck brought him out for the 8th... The anti-Davey Roberts.
I enjoy that announcers still call the double play "the pitcher's best friend." How lonely a life would it be if your best friend was a double play?
Any baseball book recommendations? I am reading Baseball 100 and Pedro Moura's new book and Molly's book is one of my all-time favorites. I assume flattery is welcome here😀
I enjoyed CC Sabathia's memoir. It's typical big time athlete memoir fare but he's got a helluva a story
I recently read The Only Rule Is It Has To Work by Ben Lindbergh and Sam Miller, which discussed their stint running an indy league team. I really enjoyed it but I'm a sucker for books about the types who love the game but won't ever sniff the majors.
Yes, I loved that one also. I am biased because I have been a listener of their Effectively Wild podcast for years.
Should have added this to my first reply: you'd probably enjoy Big Data Baseball by Travis Sawchik.
I've never checked that one out, somehow! I'll have to try it out soon.
Joe's Baseball 100 is wonderful. The Last Night of the Yankees Dynasty by Buster Olney probably influenced my reporting more than any other book. The details knock my socks off.
Eric Nusbaum's Stealing Home, which was published a couple of years ago and is about the circumstances surrounding the creation of Dodger Stadium. Not so much about baseball itself but a great read.
I'm interested in checking out "Opening Day 50-for-50 from Michael Ortman." He's maintained an Opening Day streak since he was 9 years old.
Has anyone here read Emily Nemens' book of connected short stories (also marketed as a novel) called The Cactus League? I'd be curious to know what people thought of it.
I read that one last year and absolutely loved it.
I liked a lot of it, but there were aspects (I don't want to reveal spoilers) that I found sort of hard to believe since it took place in recent times where it feels unlikely certain things wouldn't be made more public. If that makes any sense.
Maraniss' Clemente book, Levy's Koufax book come to mind for me.
Carrasco finding his old form is as big a deal for the Mets as Lindor turning back into Lindor. If he can maintain this, it maintains the rotation depth this team needs to contend.
I love that they're talking about Passover and Matzo on the Mets broadcast. I'd say that's probably a rare thing in MLB broadcasting booths.
It helps that the Mets broadcasters include Howie Rose and Gary Cohen. Not that I am watching because I don't have cable and not that I am listening because i can't listen and work.
What are they talking about? Did they notice how many people at the game today brought their own food and are eating matzah sandwiches? (There is almost always a day game during the eight days of the holiday that gets a lot of Orthodox families. I haven't attended on in ages.)
No, they just had a shot of someone wrapping a hot dog, and Gary wondered about the possibility of ordering a dog with matzo.
Sadly, no kosher for Passover food is available at Citi. (And the idea of a hot dog on matzah is just too weird.)
They do sell Kosher for Passover food at Citi-Field. The kosher food stand had it for all four games of the Giants series.
Oh, nice. Something to keep in mind for the future.
I feel like Gary, Keith, and Ron are best when a game is a blowout so they can just chat about random things and reminisce about stories from the past. I just wish it wasn't today against my Giants!
I like when this happens and they randomly go through old baseball cards to see who they get. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7te6MTyvQk)
18 straight outs for Cookie. Wow.
Groan. It's so aggravating when the Giants don't hit.
Giants get Super DH Francisco Lindor out.
Speaking of Miggy.... who are the for sure hall of famers for this era? I've got Miggy, Pujols, Trout, Scherzer, Kershaw, Posey, Molina, Verlander. Who else am I missing? (Ichiro when he's eligbile)
It’s hard for me not to see Votto. I think Greinke and deGrom will benefit from how much the role of SP’s has changed when it comes to counting stats. Wainwright’s case could be interesting. Speaking of pitchers, if there continues to be a run on relievers, where are guys like Chapman and Kimbrel?
Well, Kimbrel is walking another lead off hitter.
Not sure he'll get there, but it wouldn't shock me if Machado made it. (Brutal for me as a Pirates fan because I've always wondered how the 2013-2015 run would have turned out had they taken Machado over Taillon.)
Arenado is tracking...hard.
Are we ever going to have any middle relivers make it in? There are so many now who will never become starters or closers. Seems like that will be a conversation in the next 5-10 years.
Even today, I feel like if someone is good enough as a middle reliever, they won't stay in that role for too long.
If we're projecting out to younger guys, Soto is tracking.
Along with Vlad Jr, Tatis Jr, Ohtani and possibly Acuna Jr.
I wonder how many continued like-himself years Goldschmidt is away being there?
Harper - I think he'll get there. Freeman? Correa? Lindor?
The only multiple MVP winners who are eligible for the Hall and are not in it are either tainted by the PED era (Bonds, A-Rod, Juan Gone) or did not do very much outside of the short time when they were elite enough to win two MVPs, Like Dale Murphy and Roger Maris. Everybody else is in.
Murphy was great for most of a span of 8 years, but he earned more than 90% of his modest career ~46 WAR in those seasons, collecting only about 4 WAR total in his 10 other campaigns.
Maris even moreso: He famously won two of the closest MVP votes in history - and he may have even deserved the one he got in 1960! - but only got a few down ballot votes in one other election, and hit ~.255 with ~18 HR per year outside of those two seasons.
Harper may not have been great outside of those two MVP years, but he did also with a RoY award, made four other All-Star games, and has had some good years despite some tough ones. He's still only 29, so there's a long way to go, but he's in good shape I think.
Too early to tell for the others. Freeman, I think not. Dodger stadium will suppress his rate and counting stats for the latter phase of his career. Baseball Reference has Eddie Murray as his closest comp at basically every age, but Murray got a lot more hits. Freeman will have to average ~183/year to match where Murray was at the end of his age 37 season, and he's only once had that many in a season so far in his career. Plus Murray played until he was 41. Hard to know if Freeman will do that.
I disagree about Harper. He's very good, but he's only had one truly great season, and a a couple of deeply mediocre ones. Is there a HOFer who had a season in their prime–after they established themselves–that was as bad as any of Harper's even years?
(genuinely curious about that now)
He had a great year last year by any objective measure. I don't think he's in as it stands - he has a lot of runway in front of him to solidify his case. No doubt one reason he signed the long term deal with Philly was the HOF implication. I think he gets there.
Who from the Cubs World Series team makes it?
Nobody. Lester might get some votes, but is far from a lock. Bryant needs to return to 2015-17 form. Rizzo has also fallen off and Baez isn’t there either.
Chapman?
I don’t think so, but who knows what the standards are for RPs anymore. (I also prefer not to think of him on the team. :-))
Obviously off-field issues could prevent it ultimately
How much more does deGrom need to get there? The Mets are going to have to start that conversation this offseason if he only starts, say, 10 games.
I think DeGrom should go in. After just under 200 starts, he has a 2.50 era and 1.01 WHiP. In the expansion era, only Seaver has a lower era, no one has a lower WHiP.
He needs 2-3 more seasons near or at recent levels. At least another 80-100 starts in my book. Body of work too limited. And I say that as Met fan wearing a 48 shirt.
I think 200 starts is a good enough sample size, for someone who has been as great as he has (also a Met fan here) By comparison, after 200 starts, Doc had a 2.85 era, with a career that was trending in the wrong direction. So he hadn't solidified his spot yet, and sadly, never did.
I disagree on 200 starts. Please point to another starter in Hall with 200. Koufax had over 300 and he was more dominant, more post-season, and people still talk about his career being too short. Jake - buddy - please get healthy and make this a moot point!
I agree with you. He's still short of even Koufax, but I think his peak has been high enough that he could get in with a resume like Koufax's.
So for a pitcher to make the hall, he needs 300 starts of Koufax like quality, or he can get in with 390 at Halladay level? But 200 at deGrom level, isn't good enough? I think there's a big difference between the truly elite guys and the guys who were very good to great, but also hung around long enough to compile numbers. Was Tom Glavine really better than deGrom, or is he in the Hall because he pitched 22 seasons? If Glavine belongs in the Hall, and we agree deGrom had a better peak, I don't see how he doesn't also belong.
But at what point did most hall pitchers become guys we thought were worthy of selection? Pedro hit 200 in 2000, ended the season w 211 and a third CYA. Think he was a slam dunk by then. Kershaw reached 200 starts in 2014, also won his 3rd CYA that season. Did he really need any more for fans to say he was a HOFer? Lot of guys go well beyond 200, and pile up other numbers. But how many have a 200 start stretch that they were better than Jacob has been? Not many guys whose career just stops right around 200 starts, who have very good numbers, let alone great.
If JP is still on the board - would love his thoughts on JDG. in our extremely tiny sample size of 3 MetFans & DeGrom lovers,
2 believe he needs to do more...
OK, my thoughts. Trout's a lock if he retires tomorrow for whatever reason. I think Votto is in, but I could see some fights about him -- couldn't call him a "sure" Hall of Famer. Same is true of Greinke -- he's in for me, might not be for others just yet (though he actually has a higher WAR than Scherzer). I don't think there are any you could call "sure" just yet, but Mookie Betts is closing in.
I can be convinced on greinke. and he must go in with a royals cap. Votto has to do more I think.
Beltre when he becomes eligible in 2024?
definitely.
I thought of an approach, that rewards seasons as being 'Hall of Fame' worthy seasons, and then we'd see who ends up with the most seasons that fit the criteria:
https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/gregghirshberg/viz/TieredBaseballHallofFame/TieredMLBHallofGreggSeasons_1
He doesn't feel like a Hall of Famer to me at all, but is there a case for Nelson Cruz?
Cruz doesn't even have 2000 career hits yet, and might not get the ~75 he needs if he doesn't pick it up a bit in his age 41 season. Took him too long to get going (age 28) so he doesn't have the time to compile HoF numbers. Plus he has a link to PEDs, which is all some voters need to justify ignoring a guy.
Votto?
Bumgarner? Maybe with a few more years and numbers, but he has the titles and clutch moments.
This era meaning ending their careers in the next ~3-5 years?
What would be worse... bang bang play at first on what could be his 3000th hit:
a) Miggy called out but replay review shows he is safe OR
b) Miggy called safe and replay review shows he is out
Option A you have to wait and you get your 3000th but then somewhat anticlimactic and delayed celebration
Option B you get euphoric celebration only to have Yankees make the now universal headphone signal to challenge and then you feel like you got it only to be taken away
Plus something like this happens, Tigers broadcast automatically go to an endless loop of Armando Galarraga's play at first
I think Option B would be worse. Option A would stink but we've sort of gotten used to delayed reactions in sports because of replay. Having Miggy called safe, seeing the replay, knowing that he would be out, all of that would just stink enormously.
Both equally horrible way to get hit 3000. Ugh!
watching this on SNY - GKR team in the booth -best in the bidness. How bout these Mets, huh? Lot to like so far and yes any real Mets Fan has already considered the many many many things that can and will go wrong between now and the end of October but hey, let's revel in what is clearly a well-constructed, well-managed team full of professional Major Leaguers.
Gone are the days of AAAA starters on the field and on the mound. Gone are the days of managers submitting the wrong lineups or being oblivious of their own clubhouse.
LFGM!!!!
Watching Miggy at the plate now going for 3,000 hits is a weird experience because, of course, this is a crescendo to an amazing career and yet, at the same time you know that Cabrera has been a below league average hitter for SIX SEASONS. So while we're watching the great Miguel Cabrera, we're really not. I don't know. Lots of emotions around it.
In recent history (say > 1980), who has been an above average hitter when he got hit number 3,000?
Adrian Beltre hit .312/.383/.532 with 17 HR in just 94 games the year he got his 3000th. A-Rod had 33 HR and a 129 OPS+ the year he collected his 3000th, though he only hit .250 that season.
Jeter hit .297 (without power) the year he got his 3000th, but then actually led the AL in hits the following year, with 216, hitting .316.
Eddie Murray hit .323/.375/.516 with 21 HR and 82 RBI the year he collected his 3000th. That was 1995, the strike shortened year, so his 113 games played were a larger portion of the total that season than it might otherwise appear.
Molitor had a .341/.390/.468 line, 116 OPS+, and led league in hits (225!) the year he got 3,000 (age 39 season).
Tony Gwynn had a .338/.381/.477 line the year he got 3000, in 446 at bats.
He is off to a better start so far this year, but has been essentially a singles hitter since '17. It's been a joy to be able to watch him in Detroit for the last 15 years.
I finally read that Fangraphs article from last fall about how after Miggy there is NO ONE remotely close to 3000 hits. Crazy.
This is a great point. Here are the next hitters after Miggy:
Robinson Cano, 2,629
Yadi Molina, 2,115
Joey Votto, 2,033
Nelson Cruz, 1,923
Elvis Andrus, 1,874
Yes, Elvis Andrus.
Then McCutchen! Would never, ever have guessed.
Is Starlin Castro ever coming back? I thought he stood a chance at it.
who is next closest? votto?
Unless Cano somehow sticks around to get to 3000, will we see anyone else get to that number in the next decade? Damn.
And none of them are tracking in the right direction: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-3000-hit-club-is-closed-for-maintenance/
The closest person under the age of 38 is Elvis Andrus with 1,874.
i mean i knew votto has been in the league for forever, but I honestly didn't realize he was that old
Cano has 2,629, then Yadier Molina (2,115), then Votto (2,033)
Cano, Molina and then Votto
IF the Tigers pitchers can hold the Yankees he may not get another AB today. But the Rockies come to town tomorrow. At least it (probably) won't happen on the road!
Sorry if I missed it, but which broadcast are you listening to Joe?
Watching it on the Mets broadcast.
same
We're having a little American Beauty moment.
Watching Miggy climb towards 3000 hits makes me think about any ballplayer approaching a big milestone like this. It's really hard to get a hit in the Majors/strike somebody out/etc. but the pressure of the big moment can't help anything like that. Curious about the stories for players who have approached/hit those big numbers - what's going through their heads in the ABs running up to those hits? <insert Castellanos meme here>
Imagine being stuck on 2,999 hits and everyone in the baseball world tuning in to watch your every AB. I'd be pooping my pants. (This is why they do not pay me the big bucks to hit baseballs)
Ugh. Miggy goes down on a checked-swing third strike -- appeal to first. He probably went around. They usually do, but it stinks just the same. It would be a REAL bummer if Miggy doesn't get that 3,000th hit today.
Molly here to comment on a Giants game...This should be fun
dodger fans get mad at me for respecting the giants!!! lol
HERE COMES MIGGY!
MLB not showing this game in my area,,too bad.