All right, I will be on the road to Gaithersburg, Md., on Friday for the Gaithersburg Book Festival, so unless Margo does some of the driving—which I suspect she will not do—I probably won’t be able to write a post tomorrow.
As a man in my early 40s who still considers himself in prime physical condition, it kind of blows my mind that age 36 can be considered 'old' in any context whatsoever.
I take exception to you saying Orel Hershiser had "one memorable fluky season." He was an incredible pitcher who almost certainly would have made the Hall of Fame had he not blown out his shoulder.
I'm pretty sure Joe didn't say that, the Brilliant Reader he was quoting did.
I think Hershiser will go into the Hall of Fame, eventually, via a committee, essentially for two reasons: he was and is a very respected figure around baseball; and everything Jack Morris has to sell, Hershiser has more, except Wins.
I don't think he's one of the five best pitchers from his own (loosely defined) era not in the Hall of Fame, but for the committees, that's not really what matters.
I'm sorry if it seemed like I was blaming Joe for that quote, I knew it wasn't him. However, I love the rest of your reply so much I want to hug it and I hope you are right. Orel was my favorite player pre-Kershaw and nothing would make me happier than to see him (and Fernando) eventually get elected.
To add to what you said about 36-year-old players, 1B in particular age poorly so if Goldschmidt’s decline is now he’s ahead of the curve (in a good way). It’s why there’s almost no interest in long terms deal for 1B/DH types who are 31 or older no matter how much they hit (see Rizzo and JD Martinez).
On Betts v Trout, I’ll take Trout given the lead but if Trout can never stay healthy and Betts sticks at 2B for a while, he would blow by him.
"Barry Bonds was 36 when he had his 73-home run season." Was it really necessary to include that statement, when we know why he was able to hit 73 at the age of 36?
Something for the weekend, while Joe's on the road:
Way back in the mists of a long-lost youth, I watched "The Way it Was" on PBS. A half-hour show hosted by Curt Gowdy, it brought back participants in noteworthy sporting events to reminisce and tell stories as they watched excerpts from footage of the event. The first season was the best; later seasons were just a bunch of old guys watching game films with none of the banter (for some reason, the later season shows are the only ones I can find online).
I only recall the baseball episodes (the 1946, 1947, and 1956 World Series, and the 1951 NL playoff series); other episodes covered events like the 1941 Joe Louis - Billy Conn title bout (in which "The Pittsburgh Kid" was winning on points going into the 13th round), the 1946 Army-Navy Game (which came 𝑇𝐻𝐼𝑆𝐶𝐿𝑂𝑆𝐸 to being an incredible upset), and the 1962 NBA finals between the Lakers and Celtics (where Game 7 was decided in overtime).
I've been wondering what events would be covered if the series was revived. I know there's ESPN's "30 for 30" series and SB Nation's "Rewinder" - but neither of those gets the actual participants together in the studio for some schmoozing. The events would have to be far enough in the past so that everyone's retired, but not so far back that all the key people are deceased.
I only follow baseball, so my (obvious) choices would be the 2001 World Series and the 2004 ALCS. What events would you suggest?
But Joe said "once removed". Or rather, he said that Larkin and Boyd's dad were 1st cousin. So Boyd's grandparent was siblings with one of Larkin's parents.
Those were some great BR questions! I'll supply the walk-up songs.
C - John Buck - born in Wyoming, but graduated high school in Utah, undoubtedly a Jazz fan. Miles Davis - So What
1B - Joey Votto - Taylor Swift "Red" (it's been discussed)
2B - Duane Kuiper - Cheap Trick version of "Cleveland Rocks"
3B - Jim Thome - the part of the Jurassic Park soundtrack where you hear the T-Rex stomping towards the characters
SS - Ozzie Smith - theme from The Wizard Of Oz
LF - Raul Ibañez - something played on an Ibanez (I'm not a huge fan of dudes like Steve Vai and Joe Satriani but something like that)
CF - Dale Murphy - according to a Reddit AMA he did, he's a huge Wilco fan. How about "Outta Mind?" Great upbeat song
RF - Reggie Sanders - Metallica "Enter Sandman" (yeah I know someone else has used it, but come on!)
DH - Mike Sweeney - since Mike seems like such a good dude, and since I don't really have much to say about Orange, California, let's just go with his actual walk-up song: Toby Mac "Lose My Soul
Bonus - Johnny Damon - Iggy Pop "Lust For Life" (look up the name of the album it's on)
...and I'm sorry to do this but LONDON BEFORE THE TWIN CITIES HUH. Ok then.
Love this -- and to you and all of the other walk up song commentators, A BIG THANK YOU for walking up and completing the 2nd half of my question to Joe. I was just happy that he responded -- and especially for including Joey Votto, Zach Greinke, and Jim Thome on his favorites team.
All good - but "So What" doesn't really make it as walk-up music; it's much too laid back. If we're sticking with Miles, may I suggest "Milestones"? Seriously butt-kicking piece of music.
If I was a GM with a young hitting star playing centerfield, would I move him to an easier position right off the bat? Trout, Griffey, Fred Lynn, Mickey Mantle, people can probably figure out more guys. Promising players, whose bodies just got beat up playing centerfield. Wonder if that has anything to do with why Dale Murphy didn’t last.
And not once but twice Joe mentions Ortiz’ late career production. Is he trying to beat us into a conversation about Ortiz and steroids?
If there wasn’t free agency and teams had to think about how a player would perform 10-12 years down the road maybe there’s an argument for pacing a player. But I think you have to optimize for the roster you have and that means best OF in CF.
I would have to say brilliant reader Justin really is brilliant. I set out to find differences between Hershiser and Welch, but certainly could not dismiss his "comp" immediately, and some of those numbers are eerily similar.
Here's something I came up with. In a qualifying season, the best ERA+ for both Welch and Hershiser (150 and 171, respectively) came when both were teammates with the Dodgers in 1985. And Fernando Valenzuela also posted his best ERA+ (141) that season!
Were the Dodgers just fielding like demons? If you go by the defensive statistics, this doesn't appear to be the case. Their Total Zone Total Fielding Runs were only +12. They were just 4th in the 12-team NL in defensive efficiency. Heck, they had a rookie Mariano Duncan at shortstop, and I know from researching this last week that he bled runs and committed errors with abandon.
The Dodgers did lead the NL in FIP in '85, although they are not more impressive there (3.24, with the Mets 2nd) than they were in E.R.A. (2.96, with the Cardinals 2nd). They finished 3rd in the NL in the three FIP categories: SO, BB, and HR. Nothing historic or staggering.
That 1985 rates as Welch's best season by ERA+ is probably misleading. He pitched only 167.1 IP, so just sneaked over the minimum innings. Hershiser threw a healthy 239.2 with his 19-3 WL mark. 1985 was just Hershiser's 2nd season, yet he averaged almost 252 IP from '85-'89 (and these were NL innings; no DH). He seemed to feel the effects, both in later effectiveness and workload, but since he came to the majors late (he was 26 in '85), he didn't violate the magic 25 rule that Craig Wright posited later -- that heavy workloads weren't fatal if you took them on then. And Hershiser was certainly useful over the back half of his career.
One could mention that Walter Payton didn’t score a touchdown in the Bears’ only Super Bowl victory. The game was a rout, but probably the signature moment, if there was one, was the touchdown by “Refrigerator” Perry.
I'll never forgive Ditka for that stunt. That ball should have gone the Walter. I'll also never forgive him for only winning one Super Bowl with that team. Basically, I don't think well of Ditka.
It is crazy to me that Trout is that far ahead of Betts despite them being nearly the same age. Betts has been extremely good for a long time now, how is he still that far behind Trout, who has not had a season in four years? Absolutely nuts.
Trout is on another whole level than Betts. There is a HUGE difference between a 179 ops+ center fielder and a 136 ops+ corner outfield. It's kind of like comparing Mickey Mantle to Dave Winfield
As a man in my early 40s who still considers himself in prime physical condition, it kind of blows my mind that age 36 can be considered 'old' in any context whatsoever.
I take exception to you saying Orel Hershiser had "one memorable fluky season." He was an incredible pitcher who almost certainly would have made the Hall of Fame had he not blown out his shoulder.
I'm pretty sure Joe didn't say that, the Brilliant Reader he was quoting did.
I think Hershiser will go into the Hall of Fame, eventually, via a committee, essentially for two reasons: he was and is a very respected figure around baseball; and everything Jack Morris has to sell, Hershiser has more, except Wins.
I don't think he's one of the five best pitchers from his own (loosely defined) era not in the Hall of Fame, but for the committees, that's not really what matters.
I'm sorry if it seemed like I was blaming Joe for that quote, I knew it wasn't him. However, I love the rest of your reply so much I want to hug it and I hope you are right. Orel was my favorite player pre-Kershaw and nothing would make me happier than to see him (and Fernando) eventually get elected.
To add to what you said about 36-year-old players, 1B in particular age poorly so if Goldschmidt’s decline is now he’s ahead of the curve (in a good way). It’s why there’s almost no interest in long terms deal for 1B/DH types who are 31 or older no matter how much they hit (see Rizzo and JD Martinez).
On Betts v Trout, I’ll take Trout given the lead but if Trout can never stay healthy and Betts sticks at 2B for a while, he would blow by him.
"Barry Bonds was 36 when he had his 73-home run season." Was it really necessary to include that statement, when we know why he was able to hit 73 at the age of 36?
Something for the weekend, while Joe's on the road:
Way back in the mists of a long-lost youth, I watched "The Way it Was" on PBS. A half-hour show hosted by Curt Gowdy, it brought back participants in noteworthy sporting events to reminisce and tell stories as they watched excerpts from footage of the event. The first season was the best; later seasons were just a bunch of old guys watching game films with none of the banter (for some reason, the later season shows are the only ones I can find online).
I only recall the baseball episodes (the 1946, 1947, and 1956 World Series, and the 1951 NL playoff series); other episodes covered events like the 1941 Joe Louis - Billy Conn title bout (in which "The Pittsburgh Kid" was winning on points going into the 13th round), the 1946 Army-Navy Game (which came 𝑇𝐻𝐼𝑆𝐶𝐿𝑂𝑆𝐸 to being an incredible upset), and the 1962 NBA finals between the Lakers and Celtics (where Game 7 was decided in overtime).
I've been wondering what events would be covered if the series was revived. I know there's ESPN's "30 for 30" series and SB Nation's "Rewinder" - but neither of those gets the actual participants together in the studio for some schmoozing. The events would have to be far enough in the past so that everyone's retired, but not so far back that all the key people are deceased.
I only follow baseball, so my (obvious) choices would be the 2001 World Series and the 2004 ALCS. What events would you suggest?
We all know what Brandon McCarthy's walkup song would be.
But only if played during the holiday season.
Ortiz found an undetectable PED
I was not expecting your favorite players list to be lead by three Phillies. (Tied with KC for the most if I count right?)
Joe's Raul Ibanez is a Royal. As is his Reggie Sanders, for that matter.
Raul is a Phillie... along with Thome and Dale Murphy :)
But Joe said "once removed". Or rather, he said that Larkin and Boyd's dad were 1st cousin. So Boyd's grandparent was siblings with one of Larkin's parents.
Those were some great BR questions! I'll supply the walk-up songs.
C - John Buck - born in Wyoming, but graduated high school in Utah, undoubtedly a Jazz fan. Miles Davis - So What
1B - Joey Votto - Taylor Swift "Red" (it's been discussed)
2B - Duane Kuiper - Cheap Trick version of "Cleveland Rocks"
3B - Jim Thome - the part of the Jurassic Park soundtrack where you hear the T-Rex stomping towards the characters
SS - Ozzie Smith - theme from The Wizard Of Oz
LF - Raul Ibañez - something played on an Ibanez (I'm not a huge fan of dudes like Steve Vai and Joe Satriani but something like that)
CF - Dale Murphy - according to a Reddit AMA he did, he's a huge Wilco fan. How about "Outta Mind?" Great upbeat song
RF - Reggie Sanders - Metallica "Enter Sandman" (yeah I know someone else has used it, but come on!)
DH - Mike Sweeney - since Mike seems like such a good dude, and since I don't really have much to say about Orange, California, let's just go with his actual walk-up song: Toby Mac "Lose My Soul
Bonus - Johnny Damon - Iggy Pop "Lust For Life" (look up the name of the album it's on)
...and I'm sorry to do this but LONDON BEFORE THE TWIN CITIES HUH. Ok then.
Love this -- and to you and all of the other walk up song commentators, A BIG THANK YOU for walking up and completing the 2nd half of my question to Joe. I was just happy that he responded -- and especially for including Joey Votto, Zach Greinke, and Jim Thome on his favorites team.
All good - but "So What" doesn't really make it as walk-up music; it's much too laid back. If we're sticking with Miles, may I suggest "Milestones"? Seriously butt-kicking piece of music.
Totally! Jazz is sort of a hole in my swing (as is swing for that matter). “Milestones” it is.
How are we defining "combo WAR"?
That’s when you simultaneously look at the baseball reference WAR and the fan graphs WAR while eating bite-sized pretzel snacks filled with cheese.
FG WAR sucks. They can't do defense, their catcher WAR is all framing, and their pitcher WAR is all FIP.
Using combo WAR just lessens it.
I was thinking about Welch and Dave Stewart.
If I was a GM with a young hitting star playing centerfield, would I move him to an easier position right off the bat? Trout, Griffey, Fred Lynn, Mickey Mantle, people can probably figure out more guys. Promising players, whose bodies just got beat up playing centerfield. Wonder if that has anything to do with why Dale Murphy didn’t last.
And not once but twice Joe mentions Ortiz’ late career production. Is he trying to beat us into a conversation about Ortiz and steroids?
Never.
If there wasn’t free agency and teams had to think about how a player would perform 10-12 years down the road maybe there’s an argument for pacing a player. But I think you have to optimize for the roster you have and that means best OF in CF.
I would have to say brilliant reader Justin really is brilliant. I set out to find differences between Hershiser and Welch, but certainly could not dismiss his "comp" immediately, and some of those numbers are eerily similar.
Here's something I came up with. In a qualifying season, the best ERA+ for both Welch and Hershiser (150 and 171, respectively) came when both were teammates with the Dodgers in 1985. And Fernando Valenzuela also posted his best ERA+ (141) that season!
Were the Dodgers just fielding like demons? If you go by the defensive statistics, this doesn't appear to be the case. Their Total Zone Total Fielding Runs were only +12. They were just 4th in the 12-team NL in defensive efficiency. Heck, they had a rookie Mariano Duncan at shortstop, and I know from researching this last week that he bled runs and committed errors with abandon.
The Dodgers did lead the NL in FIP in '85, although they are not more impressive there (3.24, with the Mets 2nd) than they were in E.R.A. (2.96, with the Cardinals 2nd). They finished 3rd in the NL in the three FIP categories: SO, BB, and HR. Nothing historic or staggering.
That 1985 rates as Welch's best season by ERA+ is probably misleading. He pitched only 167.1 IP, so just sneaked over the minimum innings. Hershiser threw a healthy 239.2 with his 19-3 WL mark. 1985 was just Hershiser's 2nd season, yet he averaged almost 252 IP from '85-'89 (and these were NL innings; no DH). He seemed to feel the effects, both in later effectiveness and workload, but since he came to the majors late (he was 26 in '85), he didn't violate the magic 25 rule that Craig Wright posited later -- that heavy workloads weren't fatal if you took them on then. And Hershiser was certainly useful over the back half of his career.
good questions and a LOT of stuff i didn't know!
and i'd never thought about the fact that it's so often NOT the superstars in baseball who create the immortal memories & legendary moments!!!
One could mention that Walter Payton didn’t score a touchdown in the Bears’ only Super Bowl victory. The game was a rout, but probably the signature moment, if there was one, was the touchdown by “Refrigerator” Perry.
I'll never forgive Ditka for that stunt. That ball should have gone the Walter. I'll also never forgive him for only winning one Super Bowl with that team. Basically, I don't think well of Ditka.
Agree 100%.
It is crazy to me that Trout is that far ahead of Betts despite them being nearly the same age. Betts has been extremely good for a long time now, how is he still that far behind Trout, who has not had a season in four years? Absolutely nuts.
Betts played college at Vandy while Trout came up early.
What’s crazy to me, as a Sox fan, is that the Sox even thought of trading their most popular, best player…
Trout is on another whole level than Betts. There is a HUGE difference between a 179 ops+ center fielder and a 136 ops+ corner outfield. It's kind of like comparing Mickey Mantle to Dave Winfield
I think Trout started way earlier. And was more successful as a young player