Ted Williams is NOT "the greatest hitter in baseball history", as much as he would like to think of himself as such -- and, of course, repeat that very loudly and quite often to anyone in earshot or who could read a newspaper.
Sorry, Ted, it doesn't matter how loudly and how often you repeat that "fact" (presumably to boast your own ego and massage your self-esteem). As Joseph Goebbels reminded us, "Repeat a lie often enough, and people will believe it's a fact."
Of course, what people believe does not actually change the truth and accuracy of the original underlying fact. If, at some point in human history, it is widely believed that the moon is made of green cheese, that belief -- no matter how widely held -- will NOT change the fact that the moon is not, actually,
made of green cheese. That's a real and unalterable fact, and it cannot and will not be altered by some (no matter how many) people's belief otherwise.
In the case of baseball and Ted Williams, the actual fact is that the greatest hitter of all-time was, and still is, Babe Ruth. This is particularly true if you remember and account for the fact that he did not even have as many as 400 at-bats in any of his first five seasons (or four full seasons, if you want to be picky).
Sorry, Ted -- and all those who believe his utterances about his own nonpareil talents. It just ain't true, factually speaking. It's truly a shame that you convinced so many that your personal opinion was/is really a fact.
My sports-fan self (or is it identity? I could never figure out the difference) tends to become pretty attached to particular people, often going beyond the greatness of any particular athlete's on field/court skills. When figuring in game-time excellence, my perception of the athlete's character, the athlete's apparent sense of humor, and the athlete's impressions given regarding intelligence and courage, I have my own "Mount Rushmore" of athletes.
Bill Russell is easily one of the four Mount Rushmore athletes in my eyes (I haven't really decided on the 3 others). Beyond his obvious talent and fierce will to win (as Joe pointed out, he brought his best when most needed--10-0 in game sevens), Russell got involved in many issues that inspired many of us to take much more modest stands.
His book, "Go Up for Glory," written while he still played for the Celtics (I read it in high school--I read a lot of unassigned books in HS) contributed to a broadening of my social consciousness (although, as a very myopic adolescent, it took a lot more than that book to raise my consciousness significantly, but that book helped). His unflinching and unapologetic perspective in regard to social justice and speaking truth to every conceivable position or status won me over.
When considering that Russell became the first African American Coach of a major North American professional team, it's pretty remarkable that a White man, Red Auerbach, who knew a little bit about prejudice, turned over the reins to a person of color (even during the consciousness raising 1960s). Russell did not disappoint--winning consecutive championships as a player coach, right before retiring.
One night, my dad took my brothers and I to a Bulls game, back (circa 1966-1967) when the Bulls first entered the league and played in the old Amphitheater. We entered that game as Celtic fans, largely due to Bill Russell, but saw a very gritty Bulls team come within a point. The Bulls could have won it, but Bob Boozer, the Bulls Center, missed an easy layup after deking Russell and forcing a rare error on Russell's part. Poor Boozer probably didn't know what to do after the successful fake and instead of dunking, he decided to lay the ball in.
By this time, Russell had recovered to get his fingers on the ball and reverse its course just enough for the ball to hit the rim. A large African American man, sitting next to me, stood up and yelled, "Boozer, you dumb Pollock!" (Boozer, as you probably know, was an African American man). "Only in Chicago," my dad (who was of Polish heritage) said. As we left the game, I could, for the first time in my life, feel the transformation from rooting for one team (the Celtics) to rooting for a new team (the Bulls)--and I didn't even need to have a "Sports Change Operation!"
G HOWE- Mr Hockey. Played 25 years in Detroit...Often considered the greatest hockey player of all time. Scored over 800 goals in career. W Gretzky wears 99 due to Howe. Bobby Orr has said Howe is the greatest player of all time.. . 11X Stanley Cup Finalist, 4x champ. 6x MVP.
J LOUIS - Arguably considered the greatest champion and fighter of all time. Heavyweight champion for 12 years with record 25 title defenses.The people's champion, American hero.Grew up in Detroit, learned how to fight outta Kronk gym. Joe Louis Arena named in his honor.
TY COBB - One of the greatest baseball players of all time. Arguably considered the greatest hitter of all time with his .366 lifetime average and 12 batting titles. Played in Detroit for 22 years. 3x Pennant winner. 3x WS Runner up.
BARRY SANDERS - Often considered the greatest running back of all time. A 2x MVP, Record for most yards per carry and would easily be the all time rushing leader if not for early retirement. Led Detroit to 6 playoff appearances including NFC Championship game in 1991-92
HONORABLE MENTIONS
I THOMAS, S YZERMAN, N LIDSTROM, A KALINE, J VERLNDER, M SCHRZER, M CABRERA, MEGATRON, G HILL, J DUMARS, T LINDSEY, T SAWCHUK, S FEDEROV, P DATSUK, H GREENBERG, C GHERINGER, J SCHMIDT, NIGHT TRAIN LANE, D WALKER, M STAFFORD, B LAIMBEER, B WALLACE, RODMAN, B LANIER, D BING, D DEBUSHERE T HEARNS, A TRAMMELL, L WHITAKER, J MORRIS, H NEWHOUSER, H HEILLMAN, K GIBSON, H ZETTEBERG, L BARNEY, A KARRAS, N SUH, D LEBEAUJ CHRISTANSON,C SANDERS, B SIMS, B LAYNE, D HASEK, B PROBERT, J KOCUR, THE RUSSIAN 5, S BOWMAN, C DALY, S ANDERSON, J LEYLAND, T IZZO, BO SCHEMBECHLER, L BROWN
We should define the criteria. How much do we focus on the field/court, and how much off?
Jerry Rice is so far and away the greatest at what he did, he deserves a mention. I don’t really know his off field impact measures up though. Jim Brown did attend that summit with Russell and Ali… my dad is from Cleveland and would definitely pick Jim Brown.
The boxer is Ali. But I always resented how nasty he was to Joe Frazier, who actually helped him get his start again after getting out of jail. Still, Ali is the boxer.
Jordan vs Russell is interesting. Russell was way more impactful off the court. And I kind of think Russell moved the NBA in a different direction as well. But, didn’t George Mikan do the same thing? I think this is close but I pick Jordan. Won’t argue with Russell though.
Tiger Woods is the golf entry for me. Just categorically different than anyone before him. But Nicklaus won more majors, and would be a fine choice.
Babe Ruth is the guy in baseball. I think Joe even mentioned in the baseball 100 that no other athlete has continued to be the measuring stick for greatness for as long as Ruth. Remember, he out homered every other team in the American League. Jackie Robinson’s off field contribution was obviously tremendous, and he was an awesome player, but I just think Ruth is too far ahead on the field to choose Robinson.
I grew up in South Florida, and I’m admittedly not very knowledgeable about hockey. But I look at Wayne Gretzky as the all-time gold standard for hockey greatness. And I don’t think anyone else is really a close second. When they call you to the great one, you’re the guy in your sport.
So Jim Brown, Ali, Jordan, Tiger, Babe and Gretzky. To narrow it down to four, I think I just go by which of the biggest sports. Therefore, I remove Gretzky and Tiger Woods. So my mount Rushmore is Jim Brown, Ali, Michael Jordan and Babe Ruth.
I guess I lean toward on field accomplishment more.
Ruth, Jordan, Brown, Gretzky in the 4 major sports. I do think Woods and Ali are worthy. To me, it's who dominated their sport. The face of their game and is well known by any generation. Jerry Rice for as great as he was, always seems to get left out. It's ridiculous. Can't forget him or Joe Louis.
It took a while but I have come up with my criteria. How dominant, impactful and memorable was the athlete?
Agree with you on Rice. Just not memorable enough. The most memorable highlights over like the first 50-80 years of the NFL are Jim Brown running over defender after defender.
I think Jordan is so widely believed to be the best ever that he has to be the guy. Same for Ruth. And both helped their sports explode in popularity.
Ali transcended both boxing and nationality. But mainly because of his athletic performance. I put boxing over golf but both are individual sports so one guy has a huge impact. And hockey may be bigger now but through most of the 1900s I think boxing was way bigger. Tiger kind of transcended that and brought golf to the forefront (even more than Arnie who I love) which was why I picked Tiger over Nicklaus. And I just put hockey below the other sports. Sorry…
And I just don’t give off field/ court stuff that much importance in determining the ATHLETES Mount Rushmore.
I don't think you're going to do better than Jackie Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Bill Russell, and Jim Thorpe.
For me, a Mount Rushmore of Sports would be about more than just having a great playing career—even one that changed the sport. The players who make the Mount would have had a societal impact—and have been all-time greats in their sports. Babe Ruth? Hell of a player, of course, but he was no Jackie Robinson in terms of impact to the game and beyond.
Along those lines, I'd really like to put Billie Jean King up there somewhere. And Jesse Owens needs to be up there, too.
The whole point of a Rushmore over a Hall, Walk of Stars, etc. is that it is ONLY four. If they tried adding another to the real mountain, it would all crumble. So an exercise such as this really only works if you limit it to four. This forces a lot more thinking about the criteria used to select.
Having used this exact idea for a movie class, my experience is that most people choose who they like and cannot really justify a set of standards.
Recency bias aside, it's also clearly an emotional pick—Williams was obviously the better player, but Ortiz was at the center of far more joy. Indeed, it's hard to imagine any living Bostonians for whom Williams is a more resonant figure—even octogenarians who grew up seeing Ted hit *also* lived to see Ortiz help utterly change the nature of Red Sox fandom.
As a Puerto Rican, I (and, knowing his politics, he) strenuously object to Roberto Clemente being included in any “American sports” Mt. Rushmore. We’re a colony, but that doesn’t mean we’re American.
Our Mt. Rushmore is Clemente, Wilfredo Gómez, Félix Trinidad, and Mónica Puig, by the way.
Ted Williams is NOT "the greatest hitter in baseball history", as much as he would like to think of himself as such -- and, of course, repeat that very loudly and quite often to anyone in earshot or who could read a newspaper.
Sorry, Ted, it doesn't matter how loudly and how often you repeat that "fact" (presumably to boast your own ego and massage your self-esteem). As Joseph Goebbels reminded us, "Repeat a lie often enough, and people will believe it's a fact."
Of course, what people believe does not actually change the truth and accuracy of the original underlying fact. If, at some point in human history, it is widely believed that the moon is made of green cheese, that belief -- no matter how widely held -- will NOT change the fact that the moon is not, actually,
made of green cheese. That's a real and unalterable fact, and it cannot and will not be altered by some (no matter how many) people's belief otherwise.
In the case of baseball and Ted Williams, the actual fact is that the greatest hitter of all-time was, and still is, Babe Ruth. This is particularly true if you remember and account for the fact that he did not even have as many as 400 at-bats in any of his first five seasons (or four full seasons, if you want to be picky).
Sorry, Ted -- and all those who believe his utterances about his own nonpareil talents. It just ain't true, factually speaking. It's truly a shame that you convinced so many that your personal opinion was/is really a fact.
So underrated. If his star shines 2nd, it’s only to Robinson’s.
My sports-fan self (or is it identity? I could never figure out the difference) tends to become pretty attached to particular people, often going beyond the greatness of any particular athlete's on field/court skills. When figuring in game-time excellence, my perception of the athlete's character, the athlete's apparent sense of humor, and the athlete's impressions given regarding intelligence and courage, I have my own "Mount Rushmore" of athletes.
Bill Russell is easily one of the four Mount Rushmore athletes in my eyes (I haven't really decided on the 3 others). Beyond his obvious talent and fierce will to win (as Joe pointed out, he brought his best when most needed--10-0 in game sevens), Russell got involved in many issues that inspired many of us to take much more modest stands.
His book, "Go Up for Glory," written while he still played for the Celtics (I read it in high school--I read a lot of unassigned books in HS) contributed to a broadening of my social consciousness (although, as a very myopic adolescent, it took a lot more than that book to raise my consciousness significantly, but that book helped). His unflinching and unapologetic perspective in regard to social justice and speaking truth to every conceivable position or status won me over.
When considering that Russell became the first African American Coach of a major North American professional team, it's pretty remarkable that a White man, Red Auerbach, who knew a little bit about prejudice, turned over the reins to a person of color (even during the consciousness raising 1960s). Russell did not disappoint--winning consecutive championships as a player coach, right before retiring.
One night, my dad took my brothers and I to a Bulls game, back (circa 1966-1967) when the Bulls first entered the league and played in the old Amphitheater. We entered that game as Celtic fans, largely due to Bill Russell, but saw a very gritty Bulls team come within a point. The Bulls could have won it, but Bob Boozer, the Bulls Center, missed an easy layup after deking Russell and forcing a rare error on Russell's part. Poor Boozer probably didn't know what to do after the successful fake and instead of dunking, he decided to lay the ball in.
By this time, Russell had recovered to get his fingers on the ball and reverse its course just enough for the ball to hit the rim. A large African American man, sitting next to me, stood up and yelled, "Boozer, you dumb Pollock!" (Boozer, as you probably know, was an African American man). "Only in Chicago," my dad (who was of Polish heritage) said. As we left the game, I could, for the first time in my life, feel the transformation from rooting for one team (the Celtics) to rooting for a new team (the Bulls)--and I didn't even need to have a "Sports Change Operation!"
Anyway, RIP Bill Russell.
If you don't have a baseball player on an American sports Mt. Rushmore then you don't really have a Mt. Rushmore.
DETROIT MT RUSHMORE:
G HOWE- Mr Hockey. Played 25 years in Detroit...Often considered the greatest hockey player of all time. Scored over 800 goals in career. W Gretzky wears 99 due to Howe. Bobby Orr has said Howe is the greatest player of all time.. . 11X Stanley Cup Finalist, 4x champ. 6x MVP.
J LOUIS - Arguably considered the greatest champion and fighter of all time. Heavyweight champion for 12 years with record 25 title defenses.The people's champion, American hero.Grew up in Detroit, learned how to fight outta Kronk gym. Joe Louis Arena named in his honor.
TY COBB - One of the greatest baseball players of all time. Arguably considered the greatest hitter of all time with his .366 lifetime average and 12 batting titles. Played in Detroit for 22 years. 3x Pennant winner. 3x WS Runner up.
BARRY SANDERS - Often considered the greatest running back of all time. A 2x MVP, Record for most yards per carry and would easily be the all time rushing leader if not for early retirement. Led Detroit to 6 playoff appearances including NFC Championship game in 1991-92
HONORABLE MENTIONS
I THOMAS, S YZERMAN, N LIDSTROM, A KALINE, J VERLNDER, M SCHRZER, M CABRERA, MEGATRON, G HILL, J DUMARS, T LINDSEY, T SAWCHUK, S FEDEROV, P DATSUK, H GREENBERG, C GHERINGER, J SCHMIDT, NIGHT TRAIN LANE, D WALKER, M STAFFORD, B LAIMBEER, B WALLACE, RODMAN, B LANIER, D BING, D DEBUSHERE T HEARNS, A TRAMMELL, L WHITAKER, J MORRIS, H NEWHOUSER, H HEILLMAN, K GIBSON, H ZETTEBERG, L BARNEY, A KARRAS, N SUH, D LEBEAUJ CHRISTANSON,C SANDERS, B SIMS, B LAYNE, D HASEK, B PROBERT, J KOCUR, THE RUSSIAN 5, S BOWMAN, C DALY, S ANDERSON, J LEYLAND, T IZZO, BO SCHEMBECHLER, L BROWN
LIONS, TIGERS, WINGS, PISTONS, WOLVERINES, SPARTANS..WOW!!!! IMPRESSIVE
We should define the criteria. How much do we focus on the field/court, and how much off?
Jerry Rice is so far and away the greatest at what he did, he deserves a mention. I don’t really know his off field impact measures up though. Jim Brown did attend that summit with Russell and Ali… my dad is from Cleveland and would definitely pick Jim Brown.
The boxer is Ali. But I always resented how nasty he was to Joe Frazier, who actually helped him get his start again after getting out of jail. Still, Ali is the boxer.
Jordan vs Russell is interesting. Russell was way more impactful off the court. And I kind of think Russell moved the NBA in a different direction as well. But, didn’t George Mikan do the same thing? I think this is close but I pick Jordan. Won’t argue with Russell though.
Tiger Woods is the golf entry for me. Just categorically different than anyone before him. But Nicklaus won more majors, and would be a fine choice.
Babe Ruth is the guy in baseball. I think Joe even mentioned in the baseball 100 that no other athlete has continued to be the measuring stick for greatness for as long as Ruth. Remember, he out homered every other team in the American League. Jackie Robinson’s off field contribution was obviously tremendous, and he was an awesome player, but I just think Ruth is too far ahead on the field to choose Robinson.
I grew up in South Florida, and I’m admittedly not very knowledgeable about hockey. But I look at Wayne Gretzky as the all-time gold standard for hockey greatness. And I don’t think anyone else is really a close second. When they call you to the great one, you’re the guy in your sport.
So Jim Brown, Ali, Jordan, Tiger, Babe and Gretzky. To narrow it down to four, I think I just go by which of the biggest sports. Therefore, I remove Gretzky and Tiger Woods. So my mount Rushmore is Jim Brown, Ali, Michael Jordan and Babe Ruth.
I guess I lean toward on field accomplishment more.
Totally agree. Tom, you are right on.
Ruth, Jordan, Brown, Gretzky in the 4 major sports. I do think Woods and Ali are worthy. To me, it's who dominated their sport. The face of their game and is well known by any generation. Jerry Rice for as great as he was, always seems to get left out. It's ridiculous. Can't forget him or Joe Louis.
It took a while but I have come up with my criteria. How dominant, impactful and memorable was the athlete?
Agree with you on Rice. Just not memorable enough. The most memorable highlights over like the first 50-80 years of the NFL are Jim Brown running over defender after defender.
I think Jordan is so widely believed to be the best ever that he has to be the guy. Same for Ruth. And both helped their sports explode in popularity.
Ali transcended both boxing and nationality. But mainly because of his athletic performance. I put boxing over golf but both are individual sports so one guy has a huge impact. And hockey may be bigger now but through most of the 1900s I think boxing was way bigger. Tiger kind of transcended that and brought golf to the forefront (even more than Arnie who I love) which was why I picked Tiger over Nicklaus. And I just put hockey below the other sports. Sorry…
And I just don’t give off field/ court stuff that much importance in determining the ATHLETES Mount Rushmore.
I don't think you're going to do better than Jackie Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Bill Russell, and Jim Thorpe.
For me, a Mount Rushmore of Sports would be about more than just having a great playing career—even one that changed the sport. The players who make the Mount would have had a societal impact—and have been all-time greats in their sports. Babe Ruth? Hell of a player, of course, but he was no Jackie Robinson in terms of impact to the game and beyond.
Along those lines, I'd really like to put Billie Jean King up there somewhere. And Jesse Owens needs to be up there, too.
Okay, maybe we can make room for six...
The whole point of a Rushmore over a Hall, Walk of Stars, etc. is that it is ONLY four. If they tried adding another to the real mountain, it would all crumble. So an exercise such as this really only works if you limit it to four. This forces a lot more thinking about the criteria used to select.
Having used this exact idea for a movie class, my experience is that most people choose who they like and cannot really justify a set of standards.
Ortiz over Williams? If so, only because Papi’s teams won. Which is no small consideration, of course.
Recency bias aside, it's also clearly an emotional pick—Williams was obviously the better player, but Ortiz was at the center of far more joy. Indeed, it's hard to imagine any living Bostonians for whom Williams is a more resonant figure—even octogenarians who grew up seeing Ted hit *also* lived to see Ortiz help utterly change the nature of Red Sox fandom.
How about a Mount Rushmore for states. If the qualifier is like your baseball teams, they have to be born there, here is my South Carolina mountain.
Joe Jackson
Joe Frazier
Jim Rice
Beth Daniel
Close but not quite
Bobby Richardson
William Perry
Alex English
Kevin Garnett
Alabama candidates:
Football: Bear Bryant (Bo Jackson, Bart Starr, John Hannah, Ozzie Newsome, Lee Roy Jordan and Cornelius Bennett honorable mentions)
Track: Jesse Owens & Carl Lewis
Basketball: Charles Barkley
Soccer: Mia Hamm
Boxing: Evander Holyfield
Baseball: Willie, Hank and Satch (lots and lots of honorable mentions like Willie McCovey and Monte Irvin)
Racing: Bobby Allison
Other: Mel Allen
No idea how to narrow it down to just four other than the obvious Bear has to be on it.
Easy- choose 4
I’m going with your mountain, no question
Baseball - Mays
Golf - Nicklaus
Tennis - Serena
Boxing - Ali
Hockey - Gretzky
Basketball - Russell
Track - Bolt
Football - Tebow
Swimming - Phelps
I mean, not much debate, right?
Track?
Bob Mathias has entered the chat....
Rafer Johnson has entered the chat.....
Track is either Al Oerter, Michael Johnson or Carl Lewis for the men
Alyson Felix for the women.
But some of the youngsters (esp. on the women's side) are coming.
Bolt and Gretzky aren't Americans?
Tebow??? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Joe is vague on the qualifiers, but I wouldn't describe Wayne Gretzky as a great American anything.
This is an excellent list, Mike. The only debate is if Mr. Tebow should replace Mays for baseball.
Seriously Papi over Ted Williams? That is nuts! I mean I love Papi he's great, but Ted Freaking Williams he is not. Not even close.
Putting Big Pappi over T Williams would be like putting AL Kaline, or Mig Cabrera over Ty Cobb.
Ruth - He was the first American sports superstar. Invented It. Lived It. Won It.
Ali - Global Superstar. Transcendent.
Russell- Best Team Player ever any sport. No prisoners taken , nothing fake.
Woods- I am Tiger Woods. Transformative and Impossible. Will.
Jackie Joyner-Kerseee would be on my mountain.
As a Puerto Rican, I (and, knowing his politics, he) strenuously object to Roberto Clemente being included in any “American sports” Mt. Rushmore. We’re a colony, but that doesn’t mean we’re American.
Our Mt. Rushmore is Clemente, Wilfredo Gómez, Félix Trinidad, and Mónica Puig, by the way.