You know you’re getting old when not only do players you watched start showing up on HOF ballots, but when players who you saw their entire career and remember as prospects start popping up on the ballot.
And my apologies to anyone I’ve made feel even older because I feel old now that JJ Hardy and Andre Ethier are on the ballot.
So many significant Angels on this ballot. I have good memories of all of them: John Lackey for his game 7 victory in 2002, K-Rod for his amazing relief appearances during that playoff run when no one could figure out his slider, Jered Weaver's no hitter which is the only one I've seen in person, and Mike Napoli...well, I have good memories of Napoli as an Angel, but unfortunately I'm mostly bitter that he was traded for Vernon Wells.
I forget who invented the "save" as a statistical category, but in my opinion, if your primary argument for an award comes down to counting saves, then you probably are not deserving of the award. If he is deserving of the HOF, or any other kind of recognition, then he should be able to demonstrate that worthiness using other stats, without mention of the save. If he can, then great.
Jerome something, right? So, basically what you're saying is that a pitcher should get paid and should get remembered by two different standards? 'Cause they get paid for saves, no question about that.
I don't care how pitchers get paid, I just do not think the save statistic reflects on any particular skill set. If owners and GMs think saves are worth money they are welcome to pay it all they want of course.
I think being in the Hall of Fame implies that you are famous. Only Beltran kinda qualifies. This has really been a joke since the Pete Rose ban. Rose, Bonds, Clemens, and the others are surely famous and qualified. I say we put them in and note their proven or alleged indiscretions on their plaques. Leave the morality judgments to a higher authority. Otherwise we need to rename it to the “Hall of Guys with a High WAR and Managed to Convince the Writers We Were Nice and Didn’t Cheat”, which doesn’t have a very good ring to it.
I don't want to seem argumentative here, but I legit don't understand how the idea that the HoF rewards fame came about. After all, isn't fame a kind of reward? You do something noteworthy and then become noted for it.
I'm not your supervisor, so I can't stop you (or anyone) from defining the HoF in your own terms (goodness knows the Hall hasn't done it), but the whole idea of giving someone a plaque and an opportunity to give a speech as a reward for being well-known seems... off to me. It feels like if your friend wins the lottery and then, in celebration, everyone were to chip in to pay off their mortgage.
I agree, it seems a bit outdated. I guess a hundred years ago, you became famous by getting stories written about you in the papers. The fans knew them, and when they visited the hall they could recognize the guys on the walls. I’ve only been there once, about 13 years ago. It was great, but the absence of Pete Rose just seemed strange.
Lackey needs more love here. Obviously he's not a HOFer, but he's a THREE-TIME World Series winner who pitched well for all three.
His post-season stats are better than his regular season numbers, which look worse until you consider the era. His career ERA+ is 110.
I can't do FIP in my head, but I'm gonna say 144 IP with 7 HR, 47BB, and 114 K is a pretty good line over 23 starts, 29 appearances, and 10 separate postseasons.
Can't wait to dive into this! Will you consider the nominations by the Veteran's Committee too? WHY WE LOVE BASEBALL is top of my 2023 reads. Excited to see the blurbs throughout the year.
Just from an entertainment standpoint, this list might has got to be Top 5 most boring newcomer list ever. RA Dickey will be interesting, but I'm kinda over hearing about Beltran already. The rest don't have much appeal to me.
The '21 ballot was pretty bad but at least Buehrle, Hunter, Zito, and Hudson were all notable figures for a time.
2012 is probably the worst. It had every non-Yankee fan's favorite Yankee Bernie Williams, but other than that maybe Tim Salmon or Ruben Sierra would be worth an article.
2008 from a HOF candidate perspective only had Tim Raines, but from a character perspective was actually pretty great - Beck, Dunston, Justice, Knoblauch, Brady Anderson. Maybe Joe could write up a post on each these players instead.
It seems like some of the bomb-throwing here occurs when this Substack opens up to non-subscribers. I'm assuming that due to the hyperlink to "Gift a subscription" under some of the more incendiary comments below.
It’s kind of crazy how many of these guys, perfectly excellent players, are in the 20-30 career WAR range. I think of 60 and up as guys with a good chance to get in and 40-60 as the unofficial “Hall of Very Good”. So 20-40 is the “Hall of Pretty Good”, and judging by this list of names it’s not a bad place to end up!
W 3 WS & a perfect game, HoF generally awards dynastic players. Of the SF Dynasty pitchers Cain gets in. When he came up SF Giants had NOTHING (well, did have a soon to retire Bonds). Cain literally was The Draw in a desert of bad seasons. Run support? — the media literally created an apt verb?adverb? for his outings. Watching him pitch it was easy to see why. When reinforcements arrived, Lincecum was Halley’s ☄️, Zito an enigma, and young Bum a wild horse. Cain? the backbone.
I don't know why exactly, but I find it a little weird that there is a screening committee that decides who gets on the ballot. I think they should just put anyone with the 10y of service time on it. That would also give us more Joe essays which is a win for everyone (but Joe).
Can you be bribed into mentioning the Maddux in connection with one of the 50 moments??? Maybe in relation to how rare even a complete game is becoming, especially in the postseason, where there hasn’t been a complete game since 2017, a shutout since 2016, or a Maddux since Bret Saberhagen in Game 7 of the 1985 World Series.
Pitchers are getting fewer and fewer opportunities for a Haddix too, since they're pulled before they get within a pitch or two of greatness. As for Harvey himself, you've got to follow Japanese high school baseball if you ever want to see someone pitch 12 innings again.
Given that Matt Cain landing on the Hal of Fame ballot was part of the focus of this post, it's probably a good time to mention that while I came up with the idea of the Maddux way back in 1998 when I was a teenager, it didn't really exist anywhere but a notebook where I wrote down ones I found in box scores until 2012, when shortly after starting a now defunct blog, Matt Cain and Cliff Lee pitched a tremendous pitchers duel that had them BOTH sitting on what would have been a Maddux after nine innings, except that since the game wasn't over, neither could get the Maddux. I wrote about that game and explained the Maddux, sent a link to Craig Calcaterra, who I knew was a big Greg Maddux fan, and he shared it at NBC's Hardball Talk, which did way more to begin spreading the word than I'd ever have been able to do on my own.
One big thing I'd hoped for was for Greg himself to learn about it, which he did a few years years ago when Joe told him about it during an interview.
Thank you for the warm up on the nominees. Most want to skip ahead to talk about the short-list of those with a chance to get in, but it was fun to remember these very good players who also had more than their 15 minutes of greatness. Every good team needs a pitcher like Lackey. Cain was instrumental in the Giants getting 3 championships in 5 years. K-Rod was a phenomenon - electric when he was on and surprisingly to me was able to have a very long career. I got to experience that Ubaldo season in an uncomfortable way: How about a nice June day game against the Rockies at Target Field? The Rockies aren't that good, the Twins were good, humid season still weeks away. It turned out to be a very hot and humid day and Jimenez was unhittable and the Rockies won 9-0. A very unpleasant experience, but I'd still take that memory over the blur of games that took place in Metrodome. I'd love to hear others' thoughts and memories of these nominees.
You know you’re getting old when not only do players you watched start showing up on HOF ballots, but when players who you saw their entire career and remember as prospects start popping up on the ballot.
And my apologies to anyone I’ve made feel even older because I feel old now that JJ Hardy and Andre Ethier are on the ballot.
So many significant Angels on this ballot. I have good memories of all of them: John Lackey for his game 7 victory in 2002, K-Rod for his amazing relief appearances during that playoff run when no one could figure out his slider, Jered Weaver's no hitter which is the only one I've seen in person, and Mike Napoli...well, I have good memories of Napoli as an Angel, but unfortunately I'm mostly bitter that he was traded for Vernon Wells.
I know Jhonny Peralta was solid, but the 30 WAR is really surprising.
Brilliant Readers do not feed the trolls.
I forget who invented the "save" as a statistical category, but in my opinion, if your primary argument for an award comes down to counting saves, then you probably are not deserving of the award. If he is deserving of the HOF, or any other kind of recognition, then he should be able to demonstrate that worthiness using other stats, without mention of the save. If he can, then great.
Jerome something, right? So, basically what you're saying is that a pitcher should get paid and should get remembered by two different standards? 'Cause they get paid for saves, no question about that.
Jerome Holtzman is the one you're thinking of.
Oh got it. Thanks
I don't care how pitchers get paid, I just do not think the save statistic reflects on any particular skill set. If owners and GMs think saves are worth money they are welcome to pay it all they want of course.
I do not know who Jerome is.
I think being in the Hall of Fame implies that you are famous. Only Beltran kinda qualifies. This has really been a joke since the Pete Rose ban. Rose, Bonds, Clemens, and the others are surely famous and qualified. I say we put them in and note their proven or alleged indiscretions on their plaques. Leave the morality judgments to a higher authority. Otherwise we need to rename it to the “Hall of Guys with a High WAR and Managed to Convince the Writers We Were Nice and Didn’t Cheat”, which doesn’t have a very good ring to it.
I don't want to seem argumentative here, but I legit don't understand how the idea that the HoF rewards fame came about. After all, isn't fame a kind of reward? You do something noteworthy and then become noted for it.
I'm not your supervisor, so I can't stop you (or anyone) from defining the HoF in your own terms (goodness knows the Hall hasn't done it), but the whole idea of giving someone a plaque and an opportunity to give a speech as a reward for being well-known seems... off to me. It feels like if your friend wins the lottery and then, in celebration, everyone were to chip in to pay off their mortgage.
I agree, it seems a bit outdated. I guess a hundred years ago, you became famous by getting stories written about you in the papers. The fans knew them, and when they visited the hall they could recognize the guys on the walls. I’ve only been there once, about 13 years ago. It was great, but the absence of Pete Rose just seemed strange.
Lackey needs more love here. Obviously he's not a HOFer, but he's a THREE-TIME World Series winner who pitched well for all three.
His post-season stats are better than his regular season numbers, which look worse until you consider the era. His career ERA+ is 110.
I can't do FIP in my head, but I'm gonna say 144 IP with 7 HR, 47BB, and 114 K is a pretty good line over 23 starts, 29 appearances, and 10 separate postseasons.
And he's a famous fried chicken lover.
Ya' take it where you can.
Can't wait to dive into this! Will you consider the nominations by the Veteran's Committee too? WHY WE LOVE BASEBALL is top of my 2023 reads. Excited to see the blurbs throughout the year.
Just from an entertainment standpoint, this list might has got to be Top 5 most boring newcomer list ever. RA Dickey will be interesting, but I'm kinda over hearing about Beltran already. The rest don't have much appeal to me.
The '21 ballot was pretty bad but at least Buehrle, Hunter, Zito, and Hudson were all notable figures for a time.
2012 is probably the worst. It had every non-Yankee fan's favorite Yankee Bernie Williams, but other than that maybe Tim Salmon or Ruben Sierra would be worth an article.
2008 from a HOF candidate perspective only had Tim Raines, but from a character perspective was actually pretty great - Beck, Dunston, Justice, Knoblauch, Brady Anderson. Maybe Joe could write up a post on each these players instead.
It seems like some of the bomb-throwing here occurs when this Substack opens up to non-subscribers. I'm assuming that due to the hyperlink to "Gift a subscription" under some of the more incendiary comments below.
It’s kind of crazy how many of these guys, perfectly excellent players, are in the 20-30 career WAR range. I think of 60 and up as guys with a good chance to get in and 40-60 as the unofficial “Hall of Very Good”. So 20-40 is the “Hall of Pretty Good”, and judging by this list of names it’s not a bad place to end up!
The new eligible players would all be strong contenders for the Hall of Very Good. No shame there.
W 3 WS & a perfect game, HoF generally awards dynastic players. Of the SF Dynasty pitchers Cain gets in. When he came up SF Giants had NOTHING (well, did have a soon to retire Bonds). Cain literally was The Draw in a desert of bad seasons. Run support? — the media literally created an apt verb?adverb? for his outings. Watching him pitch it was easy to see why. When reinforcements arrived, Lincecum was Halley’s ☄️, Zito an enigma, and young Bum a wild horse. Cain? the backbone.
Maybe Cain wasn't wild but he was "The Horse."
I don't know why exactly, but I find it a little weird that there is a screening committee that decides who gets on the ballot. I think they should just put anyone with the 10y of service time on it. That would also give us more Joe essays which is a win for everyone (but Joe).
For sure. Joe will spend 2000 words on an AB so it’s not like he lacks for words. He simply needs more players for his words.
I had honestly assumed it was that way until this year.
Can you be bribed into mentioning the Maddux in connection with one of the 50 moments??? Maybe in relation to how rare even a complete game is becoming, especially in the postseason, where there hasn’t been a complete game since 2017, a shutout since 2016, or a Maddux since Bret Saberhagen in Game 7 of the 1985 World Series.
Which leads to the "Haddix" where you're *this* close to greatness and a pitch or two throws it away. (I've bothered Jason with this on the Bird app).
Pitchers are getting fewer and fewer opportunities for a Haddix too, since they're pulled before they get within a pitch or two of greatness. As for Harvey himself, you've got to follow Japanese high school baseball if you ever want to see someone pitch 12 innings again.
Toney-Vaughn double no-hit, probably never happenging again--Oeschger-Cadore going for 26 innings seems...reasonably safe.
Given that Matt Cain landing on the Hal of Fame ballot was part of the focus of this post, it's probably a good time to mention that while I came up with the idea of the Maddux way back in 1998 when I was a teenager, it didn't really exist anywhere but a notebook where I wrote down ones I found in box scores until 2012, when shortly after starting a now defunct blog, Matt Cain and Cliff Lee pitched a tremendous pitchers duel that had them BOTH sitting on what would have been a Maddux after nine innings, except that since the game wasn't over, neither could get the Maddux. I wrote about that game and explained the Maddux, sent a link to Craig Calcaterra, who I knew was a big Greg Maddux fan, and he shared it at NBC's Hardball Talk, which did way more to begin spreading the word than I'd ever have been able to do on my own.
One big thing I'd hoped for was for Greg himself to learn about it, which he did a few years years ago when Joe told him about it during an interview.
Thank you for the warm up on the nominees. Most want to skip ahead to talk about the short-list of those with a chance to get in, but it was fun to remember these very good players who also had more than their 15 minutes of greatness. Every good team needs a pitcher like Lackey. Cain was instrumental in the Giants getting 3 championships in 5 years. K-Rod was a phenomenon - electric when he was on and surprisingly to me was able to have a very long career. I got to experience that Ubaldo season in an uncomfortable way: How about a nice June day game against the Rockies at Target Field? The Rockies aren't that good, the Twins were good, humid season still weeks away. It turned out to be a very hot and humid day and Jimenez was unhittable and the Rockies won 9-0. A very unpleasant experience, but I'd still take that memory over the blur of games that took place in Metrodome. I'd love to hear others' thoughts and memories of these nominees.