I’m married to someone from St. Louis and went to school in Houston so I remember 2005 very well. It was the moment my wife and I reached an informal agreement never ever to trash talk the other partner’s teams.
A sport-related story about George W. Bush. The story comes from the recently published biography of Garry Trudeau, who was a few years behind W. at Davenport College at Yale. At the Yale Bowl in 1967, W. was apparently arrested by Yale police for trying to tear down the goalposts at the Yale Bowl after Yale beat Harvard for the first time since 1960.
To give a sense of how mores change, in 1974, no one was arrested for pulling down the goalposts at Harvard Stadium when Harvard upset Yale to win an unlikely share of the Ivy League title. I know this because the person at the end of the goalpost was me..
In 1994, Penn beat Harvard to win the Ivy League title. Of the hundreds of Penn students to storm the field to rip down the goalposts, only one was arrested - me. I was on the wrong end of the goalposts as they came down and was taken to the hospital (nothing serious but wow did that hurt). Later that week I had to go to the PD and go through the motions of pretending I knew nobody in all of the surveillance pictures.
Speaking of Ted Williams, Jeff Passan has a video up that shows Ted Williams talking to Bobby Doerr about hitting while they're both on a fishing trip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SYwGIhHVPM&t=1s
If you watch the clip of Nolan Ryan getting his 5,000th Strikeout (or maybe it was another record) the TV goes to the crowd and there cheering away is a pre-presidency George W Bush (and Laura)
I think it’s even before he was governor but I might be wrong about that
1989. It was the year GWB became managing partner of the Rangers’ ownership group. How would history have changed if he became - as he lobbied for - the new commissioner instead of Bud Selig?
I once wrote an article for Sports Collectors Digest on the impact of war service on career stats. Lots of players were impacted (Musial would have made the 500/3000 Club), but BY FAR the most impacted player was Ted Williams who missed 5 seasons preserving our freedom in WWII and Korea (including 39 combat missions in Korea). Had he not missed those 5 seasons during his prime, his career stats project to…wait for it…a slash line of .347/.486/.633; 3,582 Hits; 2,486 RBI; 718 HR; 2,466 Runs; 2,676 BB; 6,600 TB; and a WAR of 162. And maybe the reluctant sportswriters would have voted him MVP a time or 2 more. Joe will tell you that many of these stats would have set MLB records that have yet to be broken. There have been many great all around hitters in MLB history, but it’s hard to argue against The Splendid Splinter as the greatest of all time!
Albert Pujols faced a deeper and wider talent pool than Ted Williams, and saw the same pitchers many fewer times than the Splinter did. But Ted Williams certainly has the numbers in his day, and without factoring any "what ifs" pertaining to racial integration, training, fastball speeds, and other things, Williams gets the nod for pure best hitter as well as much better in the second half of his career.
But that's the thing. Those "what ifs" MATTER. They DO matter. That's why I don't like to compare eras without an understanding of the nuances. Albert Pujols, at least in the first half of his career, was the best pure hitter of the last 40 years. Ted Williams is on the Mount Rushmore of greatest hitters of all time. I will die on both of these hills, even if I have to die twice somehow.
You would have to give the edge to Ted in most categories. However, Ted lost a number of prime years to military service in WWII and Korea. What if Albert and Ted both had 11,421 AB? Adjusted for that:
I thought I replied to your well spoken reply. However, it must have timed and not gotten posted. To me one of the best measures is OPS+. Albert was almost half again better than the major leaguers of his era. Ted was nearly double better than his peers.
Ditto here as a Braves fan and seeing President Carter sitting in the boxseats watching a random game. He was a fan. Not just someone who would show up during the playoffs, get shown on camera, and ignore the game. Carter and both Bushes were/are the exceptions to the general rule JoePos has often shared about how politicians shouldn't reference sports as they are all but sure to mangle the reference.
In a sorta related way, it is why I get such a kick out of Ellen Adair's love of the Phillies. I like it when our celebrities love our sports just like we do and become over-the-top silly fans.
When you compare Pujols and Williams within their respective eras, you could make a case for Williams (though Musial is also in contention). But comparing them head to head? As Joe has noted many times, modern baseball players are just so much better than their predecessors because the competition is so much better. I don't think Williams would have been able to do nearly as much with Lidge's stuff. Or Pedro's. Or Randy Johnson's. Or even most 3rd and 4th starters in the 21st century. At least one version of era adjusted WAR has Pujols at 112 and Williams at 110 (Musial is ahead of them both in both era adjusted WAR versions). But from 1939-60, Williams has a real claim on being the best hitter.
Williams doesn't have a claim to being the best hitter for that time frame. It's his, and it's indisputable. Musial was great, and Mantle/Mays were great for the back half of the time frame, but for the totality of the period, it's Ted and then everyone else.
Even using era adjusted WAR, Pujols is at 5.16/600 PA and Williams is at 6.77. One player is about 76% of the other. I don't know why you keep mentioning Musial, but his is at 5.62.
Not only that, Williams missed 3 full years for military service in WW2 and almost two more in Korea. Williams had two years of 10+WAR, missed 3 full seasons, and came back and had a 3rd consecutive 10+ WAR season. The only other player to have 3 years they played in a row with over 10 WAR was Willie Mays - who had 4 - and he helped himself out with fielding and base running. Williams was all bat, and it could have easily been more than 3 for him.
You could easily see Williams without going to war either time, having north of 160 unadjusted WAR and 660 home runs.
As far as hitting only goes, Williams had a 187 wRC+. Pujols best year was 184. He had a 169 his first 10 years and finished with a 141.
I once read an article that showed Babe Ruth's batting stats the 4th time he faced the same pitcher in a given game. It was ridiculous, and it was a decent percentage of all his at bats. Of course nowadays you're lucky to see the same pitcher three times and never four. So it's definitely a different game...
I think that’s true in general. But Ruth’s stats may not be the best case study (https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=ruthba01&year=Career&t=b#all_times). His OPS “only” jumped from a paltry ~1.100 for the first and second times facing a starting pitcher all the way to ~1.200 for the 3rd and later times through the order. Just jaw dropping no matter which time he was facing a pitcher.
Yeah, there may have been others in that same article that made a much bigger difference. Ruth's don't actually look that different. Thanks for the actual data.
Just for kicks, I looked at league-wide stats for the AL in 1930 (https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/split.cgi?t=p&lg=AL&year=1930#all_times). This does show the effect with an opponents' OPS+ of 92 and 90 for the first and second times through the order, jumping to 106 and 105 for the third and later times through the order. That's a big difference in general. When I check other HOF hitters Gehrig and Foxx, there was no noticeable improvement. Like the Babe, they raked no matter how many times they faced a pitcher. It's a small sample, but I'm theorizing the benefits were much more visible on lesser hitters.
Good stuff. Maybe I remembered the article just the opposite of what it intended; the good guys didn't benefit that much but the average guys got much better.
These are the stories that make Joe the most entertaining writer on the planet!
I’m married to someone from St. Louis and went to school in Houston so I remember 2005 very well. It was the moment my wife and I reached an informal agreement never ever to trash talk the other partner’s teams.
A sport-related story about George W. Bush. The story comes from the recently published biography of Garry Trudeau, who was a few years behind W. at Davenport College at Yale. At the Yale Bowl in 1967, W. was apparently arrested by Yale police for trying to tear down the goalposts at the Yale Bowl after Yale beat Harvard for the first time since 1960.
To give a sense of how mores change, in 1974, no one was arrested for pulling down the goalposts at Harvard Stadium when Harvard upset Yale to win an unlikely share of the Ivy League title. I know this because the person at the end of the goalpost was me..
In 1994, Penn beat Harvard to win the Ivy League title. Of the hundreds of Penn students to storm the field to rip down the goalposts, only one was arrested - me. I was on the wrong end of the goalposts as they came down and was taken to the hospital (nothing serious but wow did that hurt). Later that week I had to go to the PD and go through the motions of pretending I knew nobody in all of the surveillance pictures.
Speaking of Ted Williams, Jeff Passan has a video up that shows Ted Williams talking to Bobby Doerr about hitting while they're both on a fishing trip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SYwGIhHVPM&t=1s
I don’t think the dates line up for it to be your story in SI I’m afraid Joe
If you watch the clip of Nolan Ryan getting his 5,000th Strikeout (or maybe it was another record) the TV goes to the crowd and there cheering away is a pre-presidency George W Bush (and Laura)
I think it’s even before he was governor but I might be wrong about that
1989. It was the year GWB became managing partner of the Rangers’ ownership group. How would history have changed if he became - as he lobbied for - the new commissioner instead of Bud Selig?
I once wrote an article for Sports Collectors Digest on the impact of war service on career stats. Lots of players were impacted (Musial would have made the 500/3000 Club), but BY FAR the most impacted player was Ted Williams who missed 5 seasons preserving our freedom in WWII and Korea (including 39 combat missions in Korea). Had he not missed those 5 seasons during his prime, his career stats project to…wait for it…a slash line of .347/.486/.633; 3,582 Hits; 2,486 RBI; 718 HR; 2,466 Runs; 2,676 BB; 6,600 TB; and a WAR of 162. And maybe the reluctant sportswriters would have voted him MVP a time or 2 more. Joe will tell you that many of these stats would have set MLB records that have yet to be broken. There have been many great all around hitters in MLB history, but it’s hard to argue against The Splendid Splinter as the greatest of all time!
Albert Pujols faced a deeper and wider talent pool than Ted Williams, and saw the same pitchers many fewer times than the Splinter did. But Ted Williams certainly has the numbers in his day, and without factoring any "what ifs" pertaining to racial integration, training, fastball speeds, and other things, Williams gets the nod for pure best hitter as well as much better in the second half of his career.
But that's the thing. Those "what ifs" MATTER. They DO matter. That's why I don't like to compare eras without an understanding of the nuances. Albert Pujols, at least in the first half of his career, was the best pure hitter of the last 40 years. Ted Williams is on the Mount Rushmore of greatest hitters of all time. I will die on both of these hills, even if I have to die twice somehow.
Earlier this season, it came up on the broadcast that James Wood has already faced as many pitchers as Williams.
What an awesome story.
What a fantastic story... especially the part where the Astros recovered and went to the World Series!
“Just spot the direction the seams are spinning.”
ok ted
Your column gives me one more reason to rank HW as one of my favorite presidents.
Wasn't Smokey Joe Wood the manager of those Yale teams on which Bush the Elder played?
I love Albert, one of the all time great hitters. He's not Ted Williams. Consider the following (using career stats from Baseball Reference)":
WAR AB. HR BA Runs. RBI SB.OBP SLG OPS OPS+ tried to edit but it won' let me space for some reason)
Albert Pujols 101.2 11421 703 296 1814 2218 117 374 544 918 145
Ted Williams 121.7 7706 524 344 1798 1835 24 482 634 1116. 191
You would have to give the edge to Ted in most categories. However, Ted lost a number of prime years to military service in WWII and Korea. What if Albert and Ted both had 11,421 AB? Adjusted for that:
Ted Adj. WAR 180.4 HR 777. Runs 2665 RBI 2720 SB 36
Adjusted, Albert still leads for stolen bases and that's it.
The loss of those years does probably tip the balance. But if you don't adjust for era, WAR is not very meaningful.
I thought I replied to your well spoken reply. However, it must have timed and not gotten posted. To me one of the best measures is OPS+. Albert was almost half again better than the major leaguers of his era. Ted was nearly double better than his peers.
Great baseball story!! It always made me so happy when I watched the Astros at home and he was in his seat.
Ditto here as a Braves fan and seeing President Carter sitting in the boxseats watching a random game. He was a fan. Not just someone who would show up during the playoffs, get shown on camera, and ignore the game. Carter and both Bushes were/are the exceptions to the general rule JoePos has often shared about how politicians shouldn't reference sports as they are all but sure to mangle the reference.
In a sorta related way, it is why I get such a kick out of Ellen Adair's love of the Phillies. I like it when our celebrities love our sports just like we do and become over-the-top silly fans.
When you compare Pujols and Williams within their respective eras, you could make a case for Williams (though Musial is also in contention). But comparing them head to head? As Joe has noted many times, modern baseball players are just so much better than their predecessors because the competition is so much better. I don't think Williams would have been able to do nearly as much with Lidge's stuff. Or Pedro's. Or Randy Johnson's. Or even most 3rd and 4th starters in the 21st century. At least one version of era adjusted WAR has Pujols at 112 and Williams at 110 (Musial is ahead of them both in both era adjusted WAR versions). But from 1939-60, Williams has a real claim on being the best hitter.
Williams doesn't have a claim to being the best hitter for that time frame. It's his, and it's indisputable. Musial was great, and Mantle/Mays were great for the back half of the time frame, but for the totality of the period, it's Ted and then everyone else.
Even using era adjusted WAR, Pujols is at 5.16/600 PA and Williams is at 6.77. One player is about 76% of the other. I don't know why you keep mentioning Musial, but his is at 5.62.
Not only that, Williams missed 3 full years for military service in WW2 and almost two more in Korea. Williams had two years of 10+WAR, missed 3 full seasons, and came back and had a 3rd consecutive 10+ WAR season. The only other player to have 3 years they played in a row with over 10 WAR was Willie Mays - who had 4 - and he helped himself out with fielding and base running. Williams was all bat, and it could have easily been more than 3 for him.
You could easily see Williams without going to war either time, having north of 160 unadjusted WAR and 660 home runs.
As far as hitting only goes, Williams had a 187 wRC+. Pujols best year was 184. He had a 169 his first 10 years and finished with a 141.
I once read an article that showed Babe Ruth's batting stats the 4th time he faced the same pitcher in a given game. It was ridiculous, and it was a decent percentage of all his at bats. Of course nowadays you're lucky to see the same pitcher three times and never four. So it's definitely a different game...
I think that’s true in general. But Ruth’s stats may not be the best case study (https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=ruthba01&year=Career&t=b#all_times). His OPS “only” jumped from a paltry ~1.100 for the first and second times facing a starting pitcher all the way to ~1.200 for the 3rd and later times through the order. Just jaw dropping no matter which time he was facing a pitcher.
Yeah, there may have been others in that same article that made a much bigger difference. Ruth's don't actually look that different. Thanks for the actual data.
Just for kicks, I looked at league-wide stats for the AL in 1930 (https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/split.cgi?t=p&lg=AL&year=1930#all_times). This does show the effect with an opponents' OPS+ of 92 and 90 for the first and second times through the order, jumping to 106 and 105 for the third and later times through the order. That's a big difference in general. When I check other HOF hitters Gehrig and Foxx, there was no noticeable improvement. Like the Babe, they raked no matter how many times they faced a pitcher. It's a small sample, but I'm theorizing the benefits were much more visible on lesser hitters.
Good stuff. Maybe I remembered the article just the opposite of what it intended; the good guys didn't benefit that much but the average guys got much better.