There’s a great scene at the end of “Princess Bride” — a movie with, perhaps, more great scenes than any other — after Inigo Montoya has killed Count Rugen and Westley has reunited with Buttercup, and Fezzik has found the four white horses that will take our heroes off into the sunset.
We should flip the vote for anyone with a 70+ War. 70+ should be automatic, but give the voters a chance to block it on moral grounds- cheating, criminal activity and general bigotry. If someone is at 70+, flip how the vote works. You vote to block him instead of inducting him. If 30% of the people vote to block them they don't get in that year, but they stay on the ballot. If 50% vote to block them they get in, but they get a black plaque- no picture, just a name, their stats, and the reason they were black plaqued. 70% and they are actually banned from the hall.
Players without controversy with a 60+ War I'd vote to put in. Players with a 50+ WAR I'd look and see if they did anything exceptional... If Posada had made it to 50 his rings would have done it for me. If Dale Murphy had made it to 50 his time with one team (although they did trade him) and being so well liked throughout the game... I'd give him a vote.
Guys in the 40s... Curt Flood... I'd look to see if it is likely they would have made it if not for something that they shouldn't be penalized for. A guy tears up his knee at 34 and gets stuck at 48 War... well, that happens. A guy tears up his knee jumping out of a burning building he ran into to save kids and puppies... he would have gotten there if not for that, so we estimate what he would have reached... he would have almost certainly got to 50... possibly 60... did he have a good post season?
And Flood, sticking up for worker rights, that absolutely is a good guy thing. If you decide he shouldn't go in the hall for his playing, give him a plaque for his role in labor... (might be a few Players' Association players who might go in for similar reasons). Tommy John's got the WAR for a borderline HOF case, and a surgery named after him (I mean, I suppose his surgeon deserves more of the credit for that, but even if you give him just a tiny nudge that makes John good enough.
I loved Carter, but his career WAR was under 20. He is the sort of guy who had a good career and a couple big moments that should get him on his team's HOF, but nowhere near HOF.
How can you write an article that questions lous war? You guys came up with it. Since when is one guys war not legit? I thought it was a mathmatical equation. A poor explanation on why whitaker is being kept out of hof ? What is really going on?
Here is an Idea, dedicate a special section in the Hall of Fame for Rodriguez, Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Shoeless Joe Jackson....Hell throw Ty Cobb, Cap Anson, Gary Sheffield, Rodger Hornsby, Palmeiro and Tris Speaker.
I don't care about the MLB HOS (Hall Of Snobs) anymore. By excluding the best players, the hall of fame is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Some players have changed the game, ignited interest and have been talked about for years regardless of their "stats" and judgment by the vainglorious BBWAA. Curt Flood, Tommy John, Roger Maris would be included in my hall. How about a competing fan-based HOF? After all, it's not the BBWAA's game; it's America's game. Let America decide -- not a small group of elites who think they know better than we do.
I'd take Keith Hernandez above either Dewey or (especially) TJ. It's probably going to take the BBWAA electing Todd Helton and the Modern Era electing Garvey and Mattingly, since the BBWAA vets on that Historical Overview Committee insist on putting those lesser first basemen on the ballot while snubbing Keith. At least the Mets are giving him his due with retiring his number this summer.
Dewey changed his stance near the end of his career and started hitting for more average to go with his power and walks and amazing arm. If he'd fixed his average a bit earlier in his career...
I second that. Hernandez reshaped how first base is played, was one of the greatest defensive first basemen of all time (which dWAR drastically undervalues), and was a plus hitter his whole career. Having said that, I’d also take Kenny Lofton over everyone after Dick Allen on this list.
Dick Allen and Lou Whitaker are both severely overrated by Joe. I generally like bWAR, warts and all, but they really overrate two players in particular: Sweet Lou and Bobby Grich. While I think Lou has a good HOF case, I have no idea why anyone thinks Grich does. The BBWAA got it right with Grich (and many others). Dick Allen? He was a great player but there are SO many outfielders who are more deserving than he is. We could start with Dwight Evans and Dale Murphy, whom Joe lists here and is 100% right about. Both of them were quite a bit better than Dick Allen. So was Albert Belle, who was essentially the 1990s-version of Dick Allen but better. Andruw Jones was better than Dick Allen. So was Jim Edmonds. So was Dave Parker. And Kenny Lofton. Maybe Dick Allen is a HOFer, I don't know. But inducting him would open the floodgates to a lot of other candidates with better resumes than his.
Grich had 4 gold gloves, 6 All Star appearances, a home run crown/slg./ops+ leading season, although it was a strike shortened season. A 30 HR season when that was considered a sign of pretty good power, could play middle infield or first, had two 100+ walk seasons, led the league in being HBP once, a .300 season... he got dinged, I think, for his low career batting average at .266, but his OBP was .371., never finished high in the MVP voting, but did gets some in 5 different seasons. Lifetime dWar of 16.8, and look at this run of WAR... 6.0, 8.3, 7.3, 7.3, 6.1. He wasn't as good after he was traded, but still managed to throw up another 6 and 5.5. If he'
I mean, a bit of power, a bit of glove, not a terrible but not great batting average, but he walked a lot. I think he suffered a lot for not playing in the right market.
Rose should never get into the hall of fame. Completely different than Bonds and Clemens. Rose broke rule number one that every player knew when entering the clubhouse-- you cannot bet on baseball. Period. If you do, you get banned. Do not pass go-- you are gone.
Also, the argument that he only bet on his own team is also ridiculous. If he had money on the line, and the Reds were up by a run or two in say the sixth inning of a Thursday game, you cannot tell me that did not impact his managing over say the bullpen usage, which then could easily render guys unavailable or overused for other games, affecting the outcome of other games as well as that game, and thus affecting the Reds season as a whole.
Or is your point of view is that deserving (meaning the character piece) does or should not be a factor and that simply the best players should be in the hall period?
I would question the "sure thing" status of Minoso, but ok. Marvin Miller belongs in the Labor Lawyer Hall of Fame for sure, but I would 100% NOT include him in Baseball HOF any more than I would a stadium architect or other tangential professional. And why isn't Schilling on this list? Making his politics an issue is cancel culture (Leftism) and does not belong in this disussion.
We should flip the vote for anyone with a 70+ War. 70+ should be automatic, but give the voters a chance to block it on moral grounds- cheating, criminal activity and general bigotry. If someone is at 70+, flip how the vote works. You vote to block him instead of inducting him. If 30% of the people vote to block them they don't get in that year, but they stay on the ballot. If 50% vote to block them they get in, but they get a black plaque- no picture, just a name, their stats, and the reason they were black plaqued. 70% and they are actually banned from the hall.
Players without controversy with a 60+ War I'd vote to put in. Players with a 50+ WAR I'd look and see if they did anything exceptional... If Posada had made it to 50 his rings would have done it for me. If Dale Murphy had made it to 50 his time with one team (although they did trade him) and being so well liked throughout the game... I'd give him a vote.
Guys in the 40s... Curt Flood... I'd look to see if it is likely they would have made it if not for something that they shouldn't be penalized for. A guy tears up his knee at 34 and gets stuck at 48 War... well, that happens. A guy tears up his knee jumping out of a burning building he ran into to save kids and puppies... he would have gotten there if not for that, so we estimate what he would have reached... he would have almost certainly got to 50... possibly 60... did he have a good post season?
And Flood, sticking up for worker rights, that absolutely is a good guy thing. If you decide he shouldn't go in the hall for his playing, give him a plaque for his role in labor... (might be a few Players' Association players who might go in for similar reasons). Tommy John's got the WAR for a borderline HOF case, and a surgery named after him (I mean, I suppose his surgeon deserves more of the credit for that, but even if you give him just a tiny nudge that makes John good enough.
Joe Carter
I loved Carter, but his career WAR was under 20. He is the sort of guy who had a good career and a couple big moments that should get him on his team's HOF, but nowhere near HOF.
How can you write an article that questions lous war? You guys came up with it. Since when is one guys war not legit? I thought it was a mathmatical equation. A poor explanation on why whitaker is being kept out of hof ? What is really going on?
Funny how I never see Al Oliver mentioned regarding the HOF!
Joe Jackson
I was with you until Pete Rose.
Here is an Idea, dedicate a special section in the Hall of Fame for Rodriguez, Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Shoeless Joe Jackson....Hell throw Ty Cobb, Cap Anson, Gary Sheffield, Rodger Hornsby, Palmeiro and Tris Speaker.
Call it Hall of Fame Hell.
Hall of SH/Fame. (I'm sure you know this, but there are a LOT of other guys who could enter that HOF)!
I don't care about the MLB HOS (Hall Of Snobs) anymore. By excluding the best players, the hall of fame is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Some players have changed the game, ignited interest and have been talked about for years regardless of their "stats" and judgment by the vainglorious BBWAA. Curt Flood, Tommy John, Roger Maris would be included in my hall. How about a competing fan-based HOF? After all, it's not the BBWAA's game; it's America's game. Let America decide -- not a small group of elites who think they know better than we do.
I'd absolutely put Flood in, probably put John in (although, to be fair, he just got the surgery, not performed it), and Maris's peak was short.
Where is Steve Jeltz? (If you giggled, you are welcome)
Great list!! All should be in the HOF. So glad you included Lou Whitaker. So deserving of the HOF.
David Consepcion
Luis Tiant.
I'd take Keith Hernandez above either Dewey or (especially) TJ. It's probably going to take the BBWAA electing Todd Helton and the Modern Era electing Garvey and Mattingly, since the BBWAA vets on that Historical Overview Committee insist on putting those lesser first basemen on the ballot while snubbing Keith. At least the Mets are giving him his due with retiring his number this summer.
Dewey changed his stance near the end of his career and started hitting for more average to go with his power and walks and amazing arm. If he'd fixed his average a bit earlier in his career...
I second that. Hernandez reshaped how first base is played, was one of the greatest defensive first basemen of all time (which dWAR drastically undervalues), and was a plus hitter his whole career. Having said that, I’d also take Kenny Lofton over everyone after Dick Allen on this list.
Dick Allen and Lou Whitaker are both severely overrated by Joe. I generally like bWAR, warts and all, but they really overrate two players in particular: Sweet Lou and Bobby Grich. While I think Lou has a good HOF case, I have no idea why anyone thinks Grich does. The BBWAA got it right with Grich (and many others). Dick Allen? He was a great player but there are SO many outfielders who are more deserving than he is. We could start with Dwight Evans and Dale Murphy, whom Joe lists here and is 100% right about. Both of them were quite a bit better than Dick Allen. So was Albert Belle, who was essentially the 1990s-version of Dick Allen but better. Andruw Jones was better than Dick Allen. So was Jim Edmonds. So was Dave Parker. And Kenny Lofton. Maybe Dick Allen is a HOFer, I don't know. But inducting him would open the floodgates to a lot of other candidates with better resumes than his.
Grich had 4 gold gloves, 6 All Star appearances, a home run crown/slg./ops+ leading season, although it was a strike shortened season. A 30 HR season when that was considered a sign of pretty good power, could play middle infield or first, had two 100+ walk seasons, led the league in being HBP once, a .300 season... he got dinged, I think, for his low career batting average at .266, but his OBP was .371., never finished high in the MVP voting, but did gets some in 5 different seasons. Lifetime dWar of 16.8, and look at this run of WAR... 6.0, 8.3, 7.3, 7.3, 6.1. He wasn't as good after he was traded, but still managed to throw up another 6 and 5.5. If he'
I mean, a bit of power, a bit of glove, not a terrible but not great batting average, but he walked a lot. I think he suffered a lot for not playing in the right market.
Based on your critique of why Pete Rose should not be in the hall of fame why does the same argument not hold for Clemens?
https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/platform/amp/2019/11/20/20972682/roger-clemens-mindy-mccready-ped-hall-of-fame-character-clause-mlb-hot-stove
https://www.pitcherlist.com/bbwaa-is-erasing-mindy-mccready-from-the-roger-clemens-hall-of-fame-debate/
Rose should never get into the hall of fame. Completely different than Bonds and Clemens. Rose broke rule number one that every player knew when entering the clubhouse-- you cannot bet on baseball. Period. If you do, you get banned. Do not pass go-- you are gone.
Also, the argument that he only bet on his own team is also ridiculous. If he had money on the line, and the Reds were up by a run or two in say the sixth inning of a Thursday game, you cannot tell me that did not impact his managing over say the bullpen usage, which then could easily render guys unavailable or overused for other games, affecting the outcome of other games as well as that game, and thus affecting the Reds season as a whole.
And Barry bonds too…
http://metsdaddy.com/2020/12/domestic-violence-allegations-against-omar-vizquel-should-have-same-impact-on-barry-bonds-in-hall-of-fame-voting/
Or is your point of view is that deserving (meaning the character piece) does or should not be a factor and that simply the best players should be in the hall period?
I would question the "sure thing" status of Minoso, but ok. Marvin Miller belongs in the Labor Lawyer Hall of Fame for sure, but I would 100% NOT include him in Baseball HOF any more than I would a stadium architect or other tangential professional. And why isn't Schilling on this list? Making his politics an issue is cancel culture (Leftism) and does not belong in this disussion.
Another confusing Posnanski ranking, clearly something that challenges Joe (see Baseball 100)