Ok. We get you’re a Cleveland die hard homer for Lebron James. We already KNOW he wasn’t as good a player as Jordan. We didn’t need a show. He feels more like a Magic — and that’s a whole wonderful creative thing unto itself. And as much as I’m impressed w MJ basketball dominance,
I’ll still say Bill Russell remains THE standard. The Jordan + Magic (or LBJ, whatever the preference). ... BUT ... I have to WHOLLY AGREE w how wrong this idea is that the eighties and 90s were some mythical era of dominance. Boomer analogy perfect.
and if Elizabeth finds Ann Boleyn compelling, ask her if she’s checked out Isabella, wife of Edward II. Playing the Game of Throne’s at Jordan’s level!
I really enjoyed the Last Dance; found it to be compelling and a fun nostalgic trip. I didn't get the impression that the doc was saying that basketball was better in the 80's/90's at all. I think Jordan is a very interesting character in our sports world and combining that with the pretty awesome behind the videos from the 97-98 season was well worth the investment for me. I'm glad I disagree with Joe on something though; after reading approximately 130-140 of his articles since October, plus his Houdini book and having 2 others in the queue, it was probably time to disagree on something.
Oh yes, it is definitely us. Not all of us, but like many other things today it is not the number of people, but how vocal the people that fit the category are. The derisive and insipid "OK Boomer" is probably actually directed at Gen X as much as Boomers at this point, and some day the other generations including millennials and whatever comes after will also be doing the same thing. It was happening for hundreds of years, well before they started naming generations. Older people telling younger people that it was better in my day and that the younger people of today are inferior, younger people thinking they have it all sussed out and making fun of older people for being stuck in the past or blaming them for ruining everything.
Every generation that thinks it is the rebellious generation that will change everything and resents the previous one eventually becomes the older generation that clings to the past and shakes their head at the younger one. It is inevitable.
I watched The Last Dance and thought it was great. A couple points:
1. Even though MJ had heavy editing influence, it still clearly comes through what kind of person he was/is.
2. The get off my lawn talk about 90's players being better than today players (which I think the '90's stars are very guilty of especially Sir Charles) thankfully doesn't show up in the film.
3. The ensuing drama from the other Bulls' players takes on the documentary is going to be great entertainment in its own right. Already Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant are pissed and speaking out.
As someone who has watched Brooklyn 99 since day one, I can say that it remains wonderful and hilarious and affirming and, yes, joyous, season after season after season. In fact, I think season 7 (which just ended) is the best one yet. The second half of season 7 was one all-time classic episode after another, and the final episode of season 7 is my favourite ever.
Well I’m just about ready to look for a new series that I have missed and really don’t know much about. I generally don’t watch much tv, but have succumbed due to limited options. I think I’ll put that on my list. Wow! A 97 on rotten tomatoes. That’s quite a recommendation.
I will be surprised if you do not enjoy B99. Comedy is a very personal thing, of course, so as funny as B99 is to me and many others, it is hard to say for sure whether any individual will love a particular brand of silliness (my wife does not get it). But what pervades is joy and kindness and tolerance, a sensibility that - the best I can tell from these past few happy months of our interactions - matches yours.
This is an odd take on The Last Dance, because half the commentary is (openly) not about the documentary at all, but about the people with annoying takes on the documentary. Joe, you're the best, but here you're shouting at clouds yourself by ranting about the old dudes who are shouting at clouds.
For what it's worth, I don't get any vibe at all *from the film itself* that the Jordan era was the peak of the NBA, or that Kevin McHale's hand-checks would melt modern NBA players (?) To me, it's just a celebration of what was so fun about that particular time in the League - an entertaining archive / highlight reel with lots of backstage access. Why get angry in the least about the inevitable stupid hot takes?
Also, to your other core point - I get that Michael Jordan was/is not a great humanitarian, but... the doc is still interesting, and worth a watch before just categorically slamming its subject as the embodiment of the Dark Side (yikes). Yes, MJ was mostly a jerk as a player - the film openly acknowledges this - and there is something interesting about that. I don't understand why that is automatically unworthy of examination just because Jordan didn't meet some litmus test for kindness. Especially when you acknowledge the joy he brought to many people (including you), and you also can't know everything about the man that might have actually redeemed him more in your eyes.
If we have to stop covering / following / discussing athletes who are to some degree or another a-holes (and how many of us are not, in at least some minor dimensions or moments of our lives?), there's not gonna be much left for sports fans. Which maybe wouldn't be the worst thing...
Well I think part of Joe’s issue with Jordan is due to something else he discusses at length- the antipathy of Lebrun James by many of the Jordan worshippers. And Joe, although his heart was broken at one time, really likes Lebrun. And thinks he is clearly the better player. As do I. I just think this constant discounting of Lebrun rankles Joe.
I am a 67 year old white male, so I am one of the Boomers. Jerry West was my favorite basketball player. I am not, however, one of those "in my day" guys.
I have not watched "The Last Dance" either. Joe, what you said about it, about Jordan, about everything!! Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Thank you for articulating what I never could.
Wow, the first person I've seen write thoughts about Jordan and The Last Dance that match my own. We're same age (give or take) and my favorite podcasts and writers are spending so much time telling me why Jordan is not just the best BB player ever (he probably is, but as Roger Federer has said, that discussion diminishes everyone in it) but also such a great person. I'll take a pass on that one, and am happy to find someone from my generation agree with that. I should have known Joe would be the one to write this.
This! Exactly this. Everything interesting and compelling about Michael Jordan happened between tip-off and the final buzzer. He was a supremely talented basketball player, and that's all he was. I watched a little of The Last Dance and knew it wasn't for me. It was the part about Scottie Pippen supposedly giving up during a playoff game in 1994 and Michael self-righteously lamenting about the effect of that incident on Scottie's legacy. Such breathtaking arrogance. Giving up? At least Scottie was on the court, and not swinging helplessly at minor league curve balls in some Birmingham suburb.
P.S. An all-star team of today's best NBA players would crush the Dream Team. Just crush them. I'm as nostalgic as the next guy, and I'll always love the '72 Lakers, but they'd be hard pressed to win 30 games in today's NBA.
Hi Nik K. (BTW, This is Ronald H from The Athletic. Slightly different user name.) I also did not watch the show. I’m a boomer (68). I agree with you and Joe. He was a superb basketball player. And he is not a very admirable person. Possibly the two most transcendent athletes in the last 35 years- transcendent in not only their sport, but in their popularity and influence- Jordan and Tiger Woods- and neither of them gave much of themselves, to help our society. They could have done so much good- with money, and more importantly, with their voice. I think of post basketball Jordan and I think of him golfing, gambling, and smoking cigars. And Tiger- sigh. What a wasted opportunity by both.
Hi Ronald. Great to see you here. I find that the two most compelling athletes of the past 35 years are utterly boring off the playing field. Not even Tiger’s indiscretions were remotely interesting to me (I frankly found them lame compared to the indiscretions of some of the miscreants I have had the great simultaneous pleasure and misfortune of knowing over the past 30 years).
To your point, I will say that I am hesitant to judge anyone for what they seemingly have not done, because it is so hard for me to know what people actually do out of sight. But it certainly does seem that Tiger and MJ have fallen short of the standards set by Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus (and many others I am failing to think of at the moment).
Well Nik. These guys had a public platform that very very few people can get. The President, the First Lady. But there you have politics. First lady’s have almost always used their public platform to highlight a cause- hunger, illiteracy, etc. MJ and Tiger had a public platform and they could have picked a cause or two, mobilized people on some societal issue, and done a lot of good. And they pretty much ignored that. Which is a shame.
I’m with Nik, we don’t know what they do that hasn’t been made public. My guess is not much. But my question is, what if MJ’s cause was gun rights? Say he did PSAs for the NRA. How about if he was a pro-life crusader? Would that count, or do we have to approve of his cause?
Being authentic for a position. That’s what matters. And I agree with Nik. They didn’t want to lose any money. Sometimes money affects people like that. No matter how much I have I need more.
Interesting question. I do not think either of them ever had any inclination to turn half of the population against them (either half), as that would have been bad for business.
I think I can guess the answer to this, but has Elizabeth listened to Six? My kid is obsessed. The last thing we did in the Before Times was to go see it in NY. In retrospect, it feels bittersweet (and incredibly lucky, since the virus was definitely spreading then), but the show was super-fun.
I’m so glad I wasn’t drinking something when I read that line. I’m sure I would have sprayed my screen with it and made a mess. Absolutely priceless. And Elizabeth did do a great job on her creation. Kudos to her.
Ok. We get you’re a Cleveland die hard homer for Lebron James. We already KNOW he wasn’t as good a player as Jordan. We didn’t need a show. He feels more like a Magic — and that’s a whole wonderful creative thing unto itself. And as much as I’m impressed w MJ basketball dominance,
I’ll still say Bill Russell remains THE standard. The Jordan + Magic (or LBJ, whatever the preference). ... BUT ... I have to WHOLLY AGREE w how wrong this idea is that the eighties and 90s were some mythical era of dominance. Boomer analogy perfect.
and if Elizabeth finds Ann Boleyn compelling, ask her if she’s checked out Isabella, wife of Edward II. Playing the Game of Throne’s at Jordan’s level!
I really enjoyed the Last Dance; found it to be compelling and a fun nostalgic trip. I didn't get the impression that the doc was saying that basketball was better in the 80's/90's at all. I think Jordan is a very interesting character in our sports world and combining that with the pretty awesome behind the videos from the 97-98 season was well worth the investment for me. I'm glad I disagree with Joe on something though; after reading approximately 130-140 of his articles since October, plus his Houdini book and having 2 others in the queue, it was probably time to disagree on something.
"I never thought that would be us, man."
Oh yes, it is definitely us. Not all of us, but like many other things today it is not the number of people, but how vocal the people that fit the category are. The derisive and insipid "OK Boomer" is probably actually directed at Gen X as much as Boomers at this point, and some day the other generations including millennials and whatever comes after will also be doing the same thing. It was happening for hundreds of years, well before they started naming generations. Older people telling younger people that it was better in my day and that the younger people of today are inferior, younger people thinking they have it all sussed out and making fun of older people for being stuck in the past or blaming them for ruining everything.
Every generation that thinks it is the rebellious generation that will change everything and resents the previous one eventually becomes the older generation that clings to the past and shakes their head at the younger one. It is inevitable.
I watched The Last Dance and thought it was great. A couple points:
1. Even though MJ had heavy editing influence, it still clearly comes through what kind of person he was/is.
2. The get off my lawn talk about 90's players being better than today players (which I think the '90's stars are very guilty of especially Sir Charles) thankfully doesn't show up in the film.
3. The ensuing drama from the other Bulls' players takes on the documentary is going to be great entertainment in its own right. Already Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant are pissed and speaking out.
4. Bring back these intros! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn6kiimEsYc
Couldn't agree more about Jordan. We can absolutely admire his skills on the court. Off the court, not so much.
And, you and your buddies are dead right: The Doors suck.
The "Passions" web site is pretty broken. I know I keep offereing this, but if you need technical help, LMK.
As someone who has watched Brooklyn 99 since day one, I can say that it remains wonderful and hilarious and affirming and, yes, joyous, season after season after season. In fact, I think season 7 (which just ended) is the best one yet. The second half of season 7 was one all-time classic episode after another, and the final episode of season 7 is my favourite ever.
Well I’m just about ready to look for a new series that I have missed and really don’t know much about. I generally don’t watch much tv, but have succumbed due to limited options. I think I’ll put that on my list. Wow! A 97 on rotten tomatoes. That’s quite a recommendation.
I will be surprised if you do not enjoy B99. Comedy is a very personal thing, of course, so as funny as B99 is to me and many others, it is hard to say for sure whether any individual will love a particular brand of silliness (my wife does not get it). But what pervades is joy and kindness and tolerance, a sensibility that - the best I can tell from these past few happy months of our interactions - matches yours.
This is an odd take on The Last Dance, because half the commentary is (openly) not about the documentary at all, but about the people with annoying takes on the documentary. Joe, you're the best, but here you're shouting at clouds yourself by ranting about the old dudes who are shouting at clouds.
For what it's worth, I don't get any vibe at all *from the film itself* that the Jordan era was the peak of the NBA, or that Kevin McHale's hand-checks would melt modern NBA players (?) To me, it's just a celebration of what was so fun about that particular time in the League - an entertaining archive / highlight reel with lots of backstage access. Why get angry in the least about the inevitable stupid hot takes?
Also, to your other core point - I get that Michael Jordan was/is not a great humanitarian, but... the doc is still interesting, and worth a watch before just categorically slamming its subject as the embodiment of the Dark Side (yikes). Yes, MJ was mostly a jerk as a player - the film openly acknowledges this - and there is something interesting about that. I don't understand why that is automatically unworthy of examination just because Jordan didn't meet some litmus test for kindness. Especially when you acknowledge the joy he brought to many people (including you), and you also can't know everything about the man that might have actually redeemed him more in your eyes.
If we have to stop covering / following / discussing athletes who are to some degree or another a-holes (and how many of us are not, in at least some minor dimensions or moments of our lives?), there's not gonna be much left for sports fans. Which maybe wouldn't be the worst thing...
Well I think part of Joe’s issue with Jordan is due to something else he discusses at length- the antipathy of Lebrun James by many of the Jordan worshippers. And Joe, although his heart was broken at one time, really likes Lebrun. And thinks he is clearly the better player. As do I. I just think this constant discounting of Lebrun rankles Joe.
I am a 67 year old white male, so I am one of the Boomers. Jerry West was my favorite basketball player. I am not, however, one of those "in my day" guys.
I have not watched "The Last Dance" either. Joe, what you said about it, about Jordan, about everything!! Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Thank you for articulating what I never could.
Wow, the first person I've seen write thoughts about Jordan and The Last Dance that match my own. We're same age (give or take) and my favorite podcasts and writers are spending so much time telling me why Jordan is not just the best BB player ever (he probably is, but as Roger Federer has said, that discussion diminishes everyone in it) but also such a great person. I'll take a pass on that one, and am happy to find someone from my generation agree with that. I should have known Joe would be the one to write this.
This! Exactly this. Everything interesting and compelling about Michael Jordan happened between tip-off and the final buzzer. He was a supremely talented basketball player, and that's all he was. I watched a little of The Last Dance and knew it wasn't for me. It was the part about Scottie Pippen supposedly giving up during a playoff game in 1994 and Michael self-righteously lamenting about the effect of that incident on Scottie's legacy. Such breathtaking arrogance. Giving up? At least Scottie was on the court, and not swinging helplessly at minor league curve balls in some Birmingham suburb.
P.S. An all-star team of today's best NBA players would crush the Dream Team. Just crush them. I'm as nostalgic as the next guy, and I'll always love the '72 Lakers, but they'd be hard pressed to win 30 games in today's NBA.
We are of similar minds regarding The Last Dance and its protagonist.
Hi Nik K. (BTW, This is Ronald H from The Athletic. Slightly different user name.) I also did not watch the show. I’m a boomer (68). I agree with you and Joe. He was a superb basketball player. And he is not a very admirable person. Possibly the two most transcendent athletes in the last 35 years- transcendent in not only their sport, but in their popularity and influence- Jordan and Tiger Woods- and neither of them gave much of themselves, to help our society. They could have done so much good- with money, and more importantly, with their voice. I think of post basketball Jordan and I think of him golfing, gambling, and smoking cigars. And Tiger- sigh. What a wasted opportunity by both.
Hi Ronald. Great to see you here. I find that the two most compelling athletes of the past 35 years are utterly boring off the playing field. Not even Tiger’s indiscretions were remotely interesting to me (I frankly found them lame compared to the indiscretions of some of the miscreants I have had the great simultaneous pleasure and misfortune of knowing over the past 30 years).
To your point, I will say that I am hesitant to judge anyone for what they seemingly have not done, because it is so hard for me to know what people actually do out of sight. But it certainly does seem that Tiger and MJ have fallen short of the standards set by Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus (and many others I am failing to think of at the moment).
Go Rory.
Well Nik. These guys had a public platform that very very few people can get. The President, the First Lady. But there you have politics. First lady’s have almost always used their public platform to highlight a cause- hunger, illiteracy, etc. MJ and Tiger had a public platform and they could have picked a cause or two, mobilized people on some societal issue, and done a lot of good. And they pretty much ignored that. Which is a shame.
You forgot "being Best."
I am with you and my feeling is that they are both major disappointments in this regard. There’s still time for them, though.
I’m with Nik, we don’t know what they do that hasn’t been made public. My guess is not much. But my question is, what if MJ’s cause was gun rights? Say he did PSAs for the NRA. How about if he was a pro-life crusader? Would that count, or do we have to approve of his cause?
Being authentic for a position. That’s what matters. And I agree with Nik. They didn’t want to lose any money. Sometimes money affects people like that. No matter how much I have I need more.
Interesting question. I do not think either of them ever had any inclination to turn half of the population against them (either half), as that would have been bad for business.
Agree with both of you. I was looking at it from an activism standpoint. Morally I think the rich have an obligation to be charitable.
I think I can guess the answer to this, but has Elizabeth listened to Six? My kid is obsessed. The last thing we did in the Before Times was to go see it in NY. In retrospect, it feels bittersweet (and incredibly lucky, since the virus was definitely spreading then), but the show was super-fun.
"That’s Elizabeth on the right."
You are an absolute gem, Mr. Posnanski. That line has already made my day (it's morning here in Japan).
Agreed . Absolute laugh out loud line
I’m so glad I wasn’t drinking something when I read that line. I’m sure I would have sprayed my screen with it and made a mess. Absolutely priceless. And Elizabeth did do a great job on her creation. Kudos to her.
I came here to say that this might be my favorite sentence Joe has ever written.
Highly recommend the biography by Eric Ives—by far the best book written on Anne Boleyn.