Scott Servais was not a "scapegoat" and he deserved to be fired. Whatever the role of a manager is, the role of a GM and an owner is to put a different person in to manage the club day to day after it blows a ten-game lead quicker than any team in modern memory. This isn't a team that all grew old at once, like the 2004 Mariners who got Bob Melvin (who has landed numerous jobs since, and gotten to the postseason several times) fired. This was a team that has a superb starting pitching staff and what were supposed to be stars at several positions as well as several good players who have hit well for other teams, and the hitting has collapsed like a black hole. They fired one hitting coach and absolutely nothing changed. It's hard to see how you could keep a manager in that situation. Dan Wilson may totally stink at this, but he's a different voice. Edgar Martinez has been brought in as the hitting coach and a lot of Mariners fans applauded the move, except when he was the hitting coach previously, he didn't exactly succeed. The team regressed to ninth in OBP his last season; if you hire Edgar Martinez as your hitting coach, you'd expect your walks to improve year after year. Maybe he will fit this club better than the club with established stars like Cano and Cruz.
But my bottom line is that when stuff like this happens, it's not a matter of "blame the manager", it's a matter of "replace the manager." Because if the manager can't fix it, he's not the right guy.
It is an interesting point that managers have so little to do with the way a team is constructed right now when once they made teams in their image. It is actually I guess, pretty obvious when you think about it, although I hadn't really thought about it before Joe mentioned it.
Today's managers are really just people managers for the most part. There are even rumors that in some places they take instruction for on field moves and who starts from the front office. (Hello St. Louis!) But if you hit a bad stretch, they are the easy blame for the front office that put the team together. Don't look at the man behind the curtain. It was this other guy's fault.
Be of good cheer fellow Mariners fans. Tonight's game looked like a repeat of recent games. If you didn't see it, we traile-d 5-1 going to the bottom of the 8th. Then came 6 consecutive singles to tie it up. We won 6-5 in 10 innings. Congratulations to Dan Wilson and new hitting coach Edgar Martinez. Here's hoping it's the first game of Refuse to Lose II.
In baseball today, the general manager is looking over the manager's shoulder, and the manager is looking over the umpire's shoulder, and the umpire is looking over the catcher's shoulder, and the catcher? I guess the buck stops with him. Servais was a catcher. There you go.
Not sure how many people are going to comment on Scott Servais, little known outside of Seattle. Wanted to post before being overly influenced by other Mariner fans. First of all, whether today or 50 years ago, managers are hired to be fired. The usual reason given is along the lines of "has lost the clubhouse" and that is what happened here. He was 64-64 with a team that may well set a record for strikeouts in a season and also have the lowest batting average post WWI save only the abbreviated 2020 abbreviated (COVID) season Cincinnati Reds. For all of that, he had the team up 10 games in the division and 13 games over 500 just two months ago. How? Number 1 pitiching staff in baseball. But starting roughly a month ago the bullpen took a wrong term and combined with the horrendous offense we have gone into free fall (worst record in MLB for a team not named the Chicago White Sox). My take? Scott was a players manager, all rah rah and positive attitude in the worst of times. But in the last month or so he has "lost the clubhouse" and had to go. It may not be totally fair but was in no way surprising. I expect Scott will be managing again somewhere else before long.
Toward the end of his Mets tenure I used to get so frustrated with deGrom throwing EVERY PITCH as hard as he absolutely could. I’m not a doctor but I’m going to guess that’s why he’s been on the injured list the last 3-4 seasons.
One of the most valuable things about Aaron Judge ... and I cannot emphasize this enough ... is his character and his humility.
As a Yankee fan here, I watch Aaron Judge on a daily basis. And despite the home runs, and the RBI, and the batting average, and the on base percentage, and the OPS, and all the incredible things he's done at the plate that have been discussed ad infinitum, one of the things that amazes me most is his character.
He's a humble team-first leader who refuses to speak of himself in interviews. He credits his teammates first and foremost, and truly demonstrates a win-first attitude over personal achievements day-in-and-day out.
In era of bat-flips and showoffs and trash talkers and look-at-me jackasses, Aaron Judge is a throwback to dimestore novel All-Americans, almost too good to be true.
You can do the math for "At Bats per Home Run", but that's a weird way of doing it and the result isn't really good for an obvious comparison. I'd suggest that we normalize things to a career of 10,000 plate appearances*. That's a solid 20 year career (taking into account the chance of injury and short seasons), and makes comparing the great sluggers much easier.
Henry Aaron had an unusually long career - nearly 14,000 PA's. Normalize that to 10,000 - and the corresponding HR total becomes 541.
Babe Ruth? Shrink his career down to 10,000 PAs, and his home run total becomes 671.
Assume Judge keeps hitting at the same rate, then his total would be 729.
Yeah, things will get weird when you work with short careers. For serious use, I'd limit it to maybe players with 15 year careers as a minimum. Or maybe 7,500 PAs. Have fun with it!
* The formula is "(10,000 / Career Plate Appearances) x Home Run Total"
The reason people use AB/HR rather than PA is that it's awfully hard to hit a home while being walked. I get what you're trying to do, but by using PAs as the denominator, you actually flatten the difference in raw power, such is what AB/HR is supposed to measure.
Jason Giambi and Vladimir Guerrero (Sr.) had similar-length careers (8908 PA & 9059, respectively). They had a similar number of home runs, too (440-449). So by your measure, they end up basically equal. But if you're measuring raw power, you see that Giambi (homering every 16.5 ABs) had much more power than Vlad (once per 18.1 AB). You're protecting a home run total for a long career; what AB/HR measures, though, isn't how many homers a player would hit, but simply how much power he had (based on his home run rate, anyway).
Ok, this "HOF ticket before playing 10 years" might need to be its own post, because that's way too interesting of an idea to leave dangling. Off the top of my head in recent history, I've got Pujols, Trout, Shohei, Judge - without looking at any numbers, guessing Kershaw and Miggy, too?
I actually think it might be more fun to think of the guys who we thought were but just ended. Andruw Jones, Dave Parker and I am sure I am missing people. Or guys who after 10 years, you said that they really have no shot. Andre Beltre comes to mind with basically one really good year in first 12 years.
Re: "Whitey Herzog could say, 'I just want a bunch of speedy little guys who play great defense and steal a bunch of bases.'"
What's interesting about Whitey is he always said he chose fast/defense-oriented teams not because he happened to have a yen for jackrabbits, but to fit the ballparks his teams played in (spacious stadiums with Astroturf in KC and STL). Which makes me wonder what kind of teams he would've built if he managed in, say, Fenway or Wrigley or Tiger Stadium. It's hard to picture him fielding a team of thumpers and wallbangers, but it tracks.
He's the fastest athlete that I have ever seen in person. I saw Rickey and Bo and young Eric Davis and even Renaldo Nehemiah, and I thought Darrell was faster than all of those guys.
There's one for you, Joe...who are the fastest athletes you've seen in person?
He was also at one time pretty close to Maurice Green, who was the fastest man in the world for about half a decade. His 100 meter time in 1999 was the record for 6 years, and his 60 meter record held for 20 years and is still the 2nd fastest ever. He is the only person to hold both of those records at the same time.
Ernie Clement hit an absolutely insane home run last night. Clearly Vlad Sr. has been spending time around the team. (4.6 feet off the ground, highest ever by a Jay and 3rd highest ever since MLB has been tracking this stuff.)
Clement: "I mean ... I probably shouldn't be swinging at pitches like that."
Things have gotten a lot more fun (and somehow the Jays are playing better) after selling at the deadline and things like this make it worth tuning in to the tail end of a lost season.
Scott Servais had a solid 11 year career as a part-time catcher known more for his skills behind the plate than at it. His career slash line was .245 / .306 / .375, for an OPS of .681.
The Mariners this year are .216 / .301 / .365 for an OPS of .666.
M’s fan, I don’t have a problem with Servais being fired but I don’t think he’s the problem. The problem, as with far too many ball clubs, is that ownership is unwilling to spend to bring in the players, in this case, the bats to really be a contender. DiPoto basically said as much before the season with his infamous 54% remarks.
Because the Mariners haven’t been bad enough to tank they don’t have the stockpile of young hitters, so they either need to sign big-money FAs or get incredibly lucky with bargains. They’ve only really tried the latter and it’s been a spectacular failure (that’s the problem with luck, it wouldn’t be luck if it didn’t work against you sometimes). Garver, Polanco, Winker, Haniger 2, Urias, Teoscar, Upton, Frazier, etc. have all fallen flat with few hits to balance it out.
The fact the M’s weren’t even contenders in the Shohei sweepstakes is super disheartening for fans. Sure, they probably wouldn’t’ve gotten him but at least it would’ve shown a willingness to bring in some actual talent. Equally disheartening was to see the Rangers sign both Seager and Semien a few years ago. How does a division rival get *both* those guys?
This is one of the great frustrations with MLB right now. You have a few teams who are willing to spend money to be good, then you have a few who tanked and it worked, then you have everybody else, and the M’s are an everybody else and it sucks for fans.
Can it possibly just be bad luck that all those guys you list were (at least) better than average hitters when we signed/traded for them, and every one of them has STUNK in Seattle?
The spooky thing to me is the recent Teoscar quote at All Star time. He basically said he liked the Mariners players, fans and organization. Then he said that he couldn't explain why, but that he never could get comfortable hitting at Safeco/T. Mobile park. Maybe we didn't need a new manager. Maybe we needed (and still need) an exorcist.
Scott Servais was not a "scapegoat" and he deserved to be fired. Whatever the role of a manager is, the role of a GM and an owner is to put a different person in to manage the club day to day after it blows a ten-game lead quicker than any team in modern memory. This isn't a team that all grew old at once, like the 2004 Mariners who got Bob Melvin (who has landed numerous jobs since, and gotten to the postseason several times) fired. This was a team that has a superb starting pitching staff and what were supposed to be stars at several positions as well as several good players who have hit well for other teams, and the hitting has collapsed like a black hole. They fired one hitting coach and absolutely nothing changed. It's hard to see how you could keep a manager in that situation. Dan Wilson may totally stink at this, but he's a different voice. Edgar Martinez has been brought in as the hitting coach and a lot of Mariners fans applauded the move, except when he was the hitting coach previously, he didn't exactly succeed. The team regressed to ninth in OBP his last season; if you hire Edgar Martinez as your hitting coach, you'd expect your walks to improve year after year. Maybe he will fit this club better than the club with established stars like Cano and Cruz.
But my bottom line is that when stuff like this happens, it's not a matter of "blame the manager", it's a matter of "replace the manager." Because if the manager can't fix it, he's not the right guy.
It is an interesting point that managers have so little to do with the way a team is constructed right now when once they made teams in their image. It is actually I guess, pretty obvious when you think about it, although I hadn't really thought about it before Joe mentioned it.
Today's managers are really just people managers for the most part. There are even rumors that in some places they take instruction for on field moves and who starts from the front office. (Hello St. Louis!) But if you hit a bad stretch, they are the easy blame for the front office that put the team together. Don't look at the man behind the curtain. It was this other guy's fault.
Be of good cheer fellow Mariners fans. Tonight's game looked like a repeat of recent games. If you didn't see it, we traile-d 5-1 going to the bottom of the 8th. Then came 6 consecutive singles to tie it up. We won 6-5 in 10 innings. Congratulations to Dan Wilson and new hitting coach Edgar Martinez. Here's hoping it's the first game of Refuse to Lose II.
In baseball today, the general manager is looking over the manager's shoulder, and the manager is looking over the umpire's shoulder, and the umpire is looking over the catcher's shoulder, and the catcher? I guess the buck stops with him. Servais was a catcher. There you go.
Not sure how many people are going to comment on Scott Servais, little known outside of Seattle. Wanted to post before being overly influenced by other Mariner fans. First of all, whether today or 50 years ago, managers are hired to be fired. The usual reason given is along the lines of "has lost the clubhouse" and that is what happened here. He was 64-64 with a team that may well set a record for strikeouts in a season and also have the lowest batting average post WWI save only the abbreviated 2020 abbreviated (COVID) season Cincinnati Reds. For all of that, he had the team up 10 games in the division and 13 games over 500 just two months ago. How? Number 1 pitiching staff in baseball. But starting roughly a month ago the bullpen took a wrong term and combined with the horrendous offense we have gone into free fall (worst record in MLB for a team not named the Chicago White Sox). My take? Scott was a players manager, all rah rah and positive attitude in the worst of times. But in the last month or so he has "lost the clubhouse" and had to go. It may not be totally fair but was in no way surprising. I expect Scott will be managing again somewhere else before long.
Toward the end of his Mets tenure I used to get so frustrated with deGrom throwing EVERY PITCH as hard as he absolutely could. I’m not a doctor but I’m going to guess that’s why he’s been on the injured list the last 3-4 seasons.
Then again, would anyone remember Icarus if he'd been a simple sheep farmer?
I don’t give a $hit I just want the Mets to win.
One of the most valuable things about Aaron Judge ... and I cannot emphasize this enough ... is his character and his humility.
As a Yankee fan here, I watch Aaron Judge on a daily basis. And despite the home runs, and the RBI, and the batting average, and the on base percentage, and the OPS, and all the incredible things he's done at the plate that have been discussed ad infinitum, one of the things that amazes me most is his character.
He's a humble team-first leader who refuses to speak of himself in interviews. He credits his teammates first and foremost, and truly demonstrates a win-first attitude over personal achievements day-in-and-day out.
In era of bat-flips and showoffs and trash talkers and look-at-me jackasses, Aaron Judge is a throwback to dimestore novel All-Americans, almost too good to be true.
As a long time Yankee hater, I have to agree with you from what I've seen.
Your link to the San Francisco event links to St. Louis.
With regards to Aaron Judge.....
You can do the math for "At Bats per Home Run", but that's a weird way of doing it and the result isn't really good for an obvious comparison. I'd suggest that we normalize things to a career of 10,000 plate appearances*. That's a solid 20 year career (taking into account the chance of injury and short seasons), and makes comparing the great sluggers much easier.
Henry Aaron had an unusually long career - nearly 14,000 PA's. Normalize that to 10,000 - and the corresponding HR total becomes 541.
Babe Ruth? Shrink his career down to 10,000 PAs, and his home run total becomes 671.
Assume Judge keeps hitting at the same rate, then his total would be 729.
Yeah, things will get weird when you work with short careers. For serious use, I'd limit it to maybe players with 15 year careers as a minimum. Or maybe 7,500 PAs. Have fun with it!
* The formula is "(10,000 / Career Plate Appearances) x Home Run Total"
The reason people use AB/HR rather than PA is that it's awfully hard to hit a home while being walked. I get what you're trying to do, but by using PAs as the denominator, you actually flatten the difference in raw power, such is what AB/HR is supposed to measure.
Jason Giambi and Vladimir Guerrero (Sr.) had similar-length careers (8908 PA & 9059, respectively). They had a similar number of home runs, too (440-449). So by your measure, they end up basically equal. But if you're measuring raw power, you see that Giambi (homering every 16.5 ABs) had much more power than Vlad (once per 18.1 AB). You're protecting a home run total for a long career; what AB/HR measures, though, isn't how many homers a player would hit, but simply how much power he had (based on his home run rate, anyway).
Mark McGwire, 761
Duane Kuiper, 3
Ok, this "HOF ticket before playing 10 years" might need to be its own post, because that's way too interesting of an idea to leave dangling. Off the top of my head in recent history, I've got Pujols, Trout, Shohei, Judge - without looking at any numbers, guessing Kershaw and Miggy, too?
Mookie? Joe Mauer? Buster Posey?
I actually think it might be more fun to think of the guys who we thought were but just ended. Andruw Jones, Dave Parker and I am sure I am missing people. Or guys who after 10 years, you said that they really have no shot. Andre Beltre comes to mind with basically one really good year in first 12 years.
Re: "Whitey Herzog could say, 'I just want a bunch of speedy little guys who play great defense and steal a bunch of bases.'"
What's interesting about Whitey is he always said he chose fast/defense-oriented teams not because he happened to have a yen for jackrabbits, but to fit the ballparks his teams played in (spacious stadiums with Astroturf in KC and STL). Which makes me wonder what kind of teams he would've built if he managed in, say, Fenway or Wrigley or Tiger Stadium. It's hard to picture him fielding a team of thumpers and wallbangers, but it tracks.
Darrell Green!!!
Joe, you have to ask him how fast he is now.
He's the fastest athlete that I have ever seen in person. I saw Rickey and Bo and young Eric Davis and even Renaldo Nehemiah, and I thought Darrell was faster than all of those guys.
There's one for you, Joe...who are the fastest athletes you've seen in person?
I think you need to qualify that. Joe covered a lot of Olympics and I am sure he has seen Bolt in person.
He was also at one time pretty close to Maurice Green, who was the fastest man in the world for about half a decade. His 100 meter time in 1999 was the record for 6 years, and his 60 meter record held for 20 years and is still the 2nd fastest ever. He is the only person to hold both of those records at the same time.
Joe has seen some speed.
Ernie Clement hit an absolutely insane home run last night. Clearly Vlad Sr. has been spending time around the team. (4.6 feet off the ground, highest ever by a Jay and 3rd highest ever since MLB has been tracking this stuff.)
Clement: "I mean ... I probably shouldn't be swinging at pitches like that."
Things have gotten a lot more fun (and somehow the Jays are playing better) after selling at the deadline and things like this make it worth tuning in to the tail end of a lost season.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vZc36sL61g
Thanks for sharing! That was ridiculous
Scott Servais had a solid 11 year career as a part-time catcher known more for his skills behind the plate than at it. His career slash line was .245 / .306 / .375, for an OPS of .681.
The Mariners this year are .216 / .301 / .365 for an OPS of .666.
Pretty bad for an entire team, but servaisable for your backup catcher.
Joe wrote that, "I couldn’t tell you if Servais deserved this ending."
In the words of Will Munny (played by Clint Eastwood in "Unforgiven"), "Deserve's got nothin" to do with it."
Will Munny? Heard he moved to San Francisco and prospered in dry goods.
"It's a hard thing killing a man. You take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have." Getting fired is not that bad in comparison.
M’s fan, I don’t have a problem with Servais being fired but I don’t think he’s the problem. The problem, as with far too many ball clubs, is that ownership is unwilling to spend to bring in the players, in this case, the bats to really be a contender. DiPoto basically said as much before the season with his infamous 54% remarks.
Because the Mariners haven’t been bad enough to tank they don’t have the stockpile of young hitters, so they either need to sign big-money FAs or get incredibly lucky with bargains. They’ve only really tried the latter and it’s been a spectacular failure (that’s the problem with luck, it wouldn’t be luck if it didn’t work against you sometimes). Garver, Polanco, Winker, Haniger 2, Urias, Teoscar, Upton, Frazier, etc. have all fallen flat with few hits to balance it out.
The fact the M’s weren’t even contenders in the Shohei sweepstakes is super disheartening for fans. Sure, they probably wouldn’t’ve gotten him but at least it would’ve shown a willingness to bring in some actual talent. Equally disheartening was to see the Rangers sign both Seager and Semien a few years ago. How does a division rival get *both* those guys?
This is one of the great frustrations with MLB right now. You have a few teams who are willing to spend money to be good, then you have a few who tanked and it worked, then you have everybody else, and the M’s are an everybody else and it sucks for fans.
Can it possibly just be bad luck that all those guys you list were (at least) better than average hitters when we signed/traded for them, and every one of them has STUNK in Seattle?
The spooky thing to me is the recent Teoscar quote at All Star time. He basically said he liked the Mariners players, fans and organization. Then he said that he couldn't explain why, but that he never could get comfortable hitting at Safeco/T. Mobile park. Maybe we didn't need a new manager. Maybe we needed (and still need) an exorcist.