Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Ray Charbonneau's avatar

The problem isn't the number-crunching, it's the desire to simplify a complex decision by boiling it down to one crunch. All the data matters. Including results-oriented numbers like W-L record.

KHAZAD's avatar

So I am a little late to this and no one will read it but here it is anyway. I would have voted for Wheeler.

While BR is far better at rating position players (partially because Fangraphs sucks at rating defense, using the archaic UZR) they both have problems rating pitching. Fangraphs problem is bigger, because they basically go entirely by FIP. It is a fine tool for predicting whether a guy can repeat, but for all the luck it tries to take out, home run luck is one of the biggest fluctuations for pitchers, and K's are overrated as a positive for pitchers. (And underrated as a negative for hitters. They are the exact same amount positive for one side as they are negative for the other -somewhere in the middle.) BR should emphasize defense a bit less, but defense absolutely does make a difference. The funny thing is that they are trying to take luck out of it, and no one does this for hitters.

It is my belief that a hitter could go say .300/.370/.600 one year, and .264/.330/.522 the next with the same average launch angle and speed. Both are great seasons, but a big difference in WAR. Half a dozen home runs (1 a month) go away because he had good luck hitting borderline home runs in smaller parks the first year and hits the same flies in bigger parks the second year - luck of the draw. He has 1 more play made per month against him in the field. He doesn't get as many borderline pitches and strikes out 6 more times and walks 6 more. (If you don't think that is possible, you haven't watched enough borderline pitches) This is not even counting fielding. Anyone who pays attention knows that for any fielder, it can fluctuate a lot year to year.

Speaking of fielding, team defense absolutely should factor in to pitcher WAR, but maybe not as much. DRS looks at every play. A team averaged +16 last year, because good fielders play more. But the Brewers were 45 above that. On average based on innings pitched, 5 of those runs saved happen with Burnes on the mound which changes his ERA from 2.43 to 2.69, still great. The Phillies were an incredible 70 runs below average, which could have cost Wheeler 10.5 on average taking his ERA form 2.78 to 2.34

I don't think you could go all the way with that though, because of a few things: The first is that Better pitchers put less balls in play. (Burnes had 11.6% of innings, and only 10.5% of balls in play, Wheeler had 15% of innings and 14% of balls in play) They have less base runners. Runs saved or cost happen much more often with more runners on base. Bad pitchers are affected much more. Wheeler with that 15% of innings only allowed 11.9% of base runners. Burnes with 11.6% of innings allowed only 9.7% of base runners. The third is that they don't assign runs saved to a pitcher. They don't keep track. They should probably cut the defensive influence in half just because of these things. That would put Burnes at 2.56, and Wheeler at 2.56

I wanted to make those points, even if no one reads this book, but the defining thing for Wheeler to me is that WAR is a counting stat, and should be. Wheeler pitched about 28% more innings than Burnes. For Fangraphs to have Burnes ahead of Wheeler, they are not saying he is a little bit better than Wheeler, they are saying he is a 31% better pitcher, and that is certifiably crazy.

35 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?