What's amazing is that Jose Ramirez is 2 doubles shy of 40 and Ohtani is 4 short. If they can reach that milestone they would be just the second and third players with 40 HR, 40 SB, and 40 2B, the first being Alfonso Soriano in 2006.
When the 30/30 combination started getting some attention, and we all were amazed by it, Willie Mays said if he'd known it was a big deal he would have done it more...
Wow!!! Lots of heat about whose year is "greater". Why don't we just calm down and call Shohei's year "historic". Here's your acid test. In 20 years how many people will be able to recall from memory what the WAR was for baseball players in the 2020s? How many people will remember the first hitter to have 50+ HR and 50+ SB in the same single season? I rest my case.
Shohei could still do something that would be the crescendo for the Hollywood movie. He could have a season where he wins the MVP, the Cy Young and the Triple Crown. At the end of the movie he could talk nostalgically about that magical season as his name is announced and he goes up to the stage to accept his award as Manager of the Year for World Series champion Los Angeles Dodgers.
You know I respect your opinion, but like Seattle Slew he has speed for the Derby, the combination of speed and power for the Preakness and the strength and long stride for the Belmont. A healthy Acuna Jr. would push him in all three races but should come up short. The biggest danger would probably be De La Cruz in the shorter Derby.
Another factoid generated by B-Ref Stathead: Position players with fewer than 6 hits, 4 runs, 3 home runs, 10 RBI, and 2 stolen bases THIS SEASON (ie stats compiled by Ohtani in his 50/50 game), and sorted by games played.
NINETY-FIVE major leaguers have played but not matched Ohtani's one-game total.
The leader, with 27 GAMES PLAYED, is Davis Wendzel (Rangers).
A question inspired by Bryan Frances comment: knowing what we know now about Ohtani, assuming we knew his injury history would go exactly as it has gone, was it a mistake to allow him to do both actions? In other words, would you trade the incredible and unprecedented nature of his MLB career, for say a full time corner outfielder who stays healthy and gives you what Ohtani does? I’d wager he would have racked up more WAR just by nature of staying healthy. And yes, I’m comfortable assuming he would have made a fine corner outfielder and fine assuming he would have been a lot more durable without the pitching. Still not sure I make the trade though.
Okay, he's having a great season, and it will be remembered. But at least two or maybe three players are having better seasons *this year*. Moreover, although his 8+ oWAR this year is good, it's not even in the vicinity of historic, since in most years at least one player exceeds it.
His overall WAR for 2021-2024—hitting, baserunning, AND pitching combined--will be a bit less than 37. That’s fantastic, needless to say. However, it’s also exceeded by several players, such as Trout, Mays, Morgan, and Mantle—and of course several others, if we go back further in history.
The historic nature of his season is located in his Power-Speed # of 52, which is second all-time to Acuna's performance last year.
The thing is, Ohtani doesn’t FEEL like a DH. Even though he inarguably is.
We know that he’s a fantastic athlete, he looks like God designed him to be the perfect baseball player (kind of like Eric Davis looked). He runs like a deer, and pitches at a Cy Young level.
Fair or not, he isn’t perceived as an iron-gloved, heavy-legged hitting savant, so he doesn’t get dinged for DH-ing full time like others have.
It’s just hard to look at the guy and not think that he would probably be the best outfielder in baseball if he was given the opportunity.
I’d argue Ohtani’s 52/52 trumps 41/73 from Acuña. For one it’s ~93% success rate vs ~84%. Secondly, 11 homers is worth a lot more than 20 SBs. Otherwise, agreed that it’s the unprecedented nature that makes his season so incredible more so than the actual value provided, which is also incredible in a more typical way, as you point out.
I think you are both correct because beauty (or value or whatever you want to call it) is in the eye of the beholder. A day or two ago I asked about how valuable a 50/50 season based on something I called Total Bases Provided (home runs x 4 plus SB - CS). Not surprisingly, those big home run seasons of Bonds, McGwire and Sosa all produce a clearly higher TBP. So clearly how you feel about the total season depends on the value you assign to the accomplishments. For me, I would prefer watching Acuña 2023 or Ohtani 2024 as more aesthetically pleasing, but then that's just me.
A few questions. 1)Take away Ohtani and how do the 2024 Dodgers compare to the 2023 Angels as a base stealing team? Is it a different team philosophy that has Shohei running more. 2) Does anyone think he'll come anywhere near 50 SB next year when he's back to pitching?
Wrong priority? What does that mean? He's never come anywhere near 50 SB, let alone 30. I'm just wondering if the Angels restrained him and/or the Dodgers have unleashed him, and if he'll ever do it again once he's a 2-way player again.
Not that I pay close attention, but it seems like we never hear about his background. Athletic family? Tall parents? Siblings? Other sports besides baseball growing up?
Maybe that stuff is well known in LA but I never hear about it here in KC.
What's amazing is that Jose Ramirez is 2 doubles shy of 40 and Ohtani is 4 short. If they can reach that milestone they would be just the second and third players with 40 HR, 40 SB, and 40 2B, the first being Alfonso Soriano in 2006.
He should play the outfield 4/5 days
Then he could win Cy Young, gold glove, batting triple crown
Just imagine how impressive 50-50 would be before they changed the rules to make stealing far easier.
Ohtani? It’s like seeing Wilbur & his talking Spider at the State Fair.
Here's something relevant I haven't seen anywhere yet: the more homers you hit, the fewer chances you have to steal a base.
When the 30/30 combination started getting some attention, and we all were amazed by it, Willie Mays said if he'd known it was a big deal he would have done it more...
So Ohtani has beat Willie Mays in base stealing! Wow, what a thing to see in my lifetime.
Wow!!! Lots of heat about whose year is "greater". Why don't we just calm down and call Shohei's year "historic". Here's your acid test. In 20 years how many people will be able to recall from memory what the WAR was for baseball players in the 2020s? How many people will remember the first hitter to have 50+ HR and 50+ SB in the same single season? I rest my case.
Shohei could still do something that would be the crescendo for the Hollywood movie. He could have a season where he wins the MVP, the Cy Young and the Triple Crown. At the end of the movie he could talk nostalgically about that magical season as his name is announced and he goes up to the stage to accept his award as Manager of the Year for World Series champion Los Angeles Dodgers.
I dunno. I don't see Shohei doing well in the Belmont.
You know I respect your opinion, but like Seattle Slew he has speed for the Derby, the combination of speed and power for the Preakness and the strength and long stride for the Belmont. A healthy Acuna Jr. would push him in all three races but should come up short. The biggest danger would probably be De La Cruz in the shorter Derby.
He would NEVER beat Secretariat
Yes, but Secretariat wasn't a horse, he was a unicorn. I mean, a 31 length victory in the Belmont?!?!?!
what weight would they put on him?!
As big as he is, that won't be a problem.
Another factoid generated by B-Ref Stathead: Position players with fewer than 6 hits, 4 runs, 3 home runs, 10 RBI, and 2 stolen bases THIS SEASON (ie stats compiled by Ohtani in his 50/50 game), and sorted by games played.
NINETY-FIVE major leaguers have played but not matched Ohtani's one-game total.
The leader, with 27 GAMES PLAYED, is Davis Wendzel (Rangers).
A question inspired by Bryan Frances comment: knowing what we know now about Ohtani, assuming we knew his injury history would go exactly as it has gone, was it a mistake to allow him to do both actions? In other words, would you trade the incredible and unprecedented nature of his MLB career, for say a full time corner outfielder who stays healthy and gives you what Ohtani does? I’d wager he would have racked up more WAR just by nature of staying healthy. And yes, I’m comfortable assuming he would have made a fine corner outfielder and fine assuming he would have been a lot more durable without the pitching. Still not sure I make the trade though.
Don't make the trade. It would be like swapping a unicorn for Seattle Slew. Both are amazing, the best of their kind, but the unicorn is magic!
Okay, he's having a great season, and it will be remembered. But at least two or maybe three players are having better seasons *this year*. Moreover, although his 8+ oWAR this year is good, it's not even in the vicinity of historic, since in most years at least one player exceeds it.
His overall WAR for 2021-2024—hitting, baserunning, AND pitching combined--will be a bit less than 37. That’s fantastic, needless to say. However, it’s also exceeded by several players, such as Trout, Mays, Morgan, and Mantle—and of course several others, if we go back further in history.
The historic nature of his season is located in his Power-Speed # of 52, which is second all-time to Acuna's performance last year.
The thing is, Ohtani doesn’t FEEL like a DH. Even though he inarguably is.
We know that he’s a fantastic athlete, he looks like God designed him to be the perfect baseball player (kind of like Eric Davis looked). He runs like a deer, and pitches at a Cy Young level.
Fair or not, he isn’t perceived as an iron-gloved, heavy-legged hitting savant, so he doesn’t get dinged for DH-ing full time like others have.
It’s just hard to look at the guy and not think that he would probably be the best outfielder in baseball if he was given the opportunity.
I’d argue Ohtani’s 52/52 trumps 41/73 from Acuña. For one it’s ~93% success rate vs ~84%. Secondly, 11 homers is worth a lot more than 20 SBs. Otherwise, agreed that it’s the unprecedented nature that makes his season so incredible more so than the actual value provided, which is also incredible in a more typical way, as you point out.
10 homers beat the living sh1t out of 20 steals in terms of value.
I think you are both correct because beauty (or value or whatever you want to call it) is in the eye of the beholder. A day or two ago I asked about how valuable a 50/50 season based on something I called Total Bases Provided (home runs x 4 plus SB - CS). Not surprisingly, those big home run seasons of Bonds, McGwire and Sosa all produce a clearly higher TBP. So clearly how you feel about the total season depends on the value you assign to the accomplishments. For me, I would prefer watching Acuña 2023 or Ohtani 2024 as more aesthetically pleasing, but then that's just me.
Worth noting that he's only been caught stealing 4 times. That's a 92% clip, 2nd among everyone who's stolen 30 bags or more.
A few questions. 1)Take away Ohtani and how do the 2024 Dodgers compare to the 2023 Angels as a base stealing team? Is it a different team philosophy that has Shohei running more. 2) Does anyone think he'll come anywhere near 50 SB next year when he's back to pitching?
Wrong priority. Enjoy the moment. We’re watching greatness.
Wrong priority? What does that mean? He's never come anywhere near 50 SB, let alone 30. I'm just wondering if the Angels restrained him and/or the Dodgers have unleashed him, and if he'll ever do it again once he's a 2-way player again.
Well, when you put it THAT way...
Not that I pay close attention, but it seems like we never hear about his background. Athletic family? Tall parents? Siblings? Other sports besides baseball growing up?
Maybe that stuff is well known in LA but I never hear about it here in KC.
He comes from that lab where Arnold Schwarzenegger was created in "Twins".
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