It's certainly true that Terrell Owens never committed any crimes and wasn't a violent guy. But, I mean, that's a pretty low bar. Hopefully, that's true of 99.9% of pro football players. So, we shouldn't leave it at "he wasn't a criminal". Yeah, OK. Zero credit for that. He was a locker room cancer. The type that divides locker rooms and creates media drama that coaches hate & want to stamp out at all costs. I'm quite sure Terrell is a decent guy who just didn't learn to filter his comments & frustrated/angered his teammates (and coaches). I think we all know people like that at our work place. We're always really happy when they're gone. As far as I know, all the people like that I've encountered weren't criminals either.
I spent quite a bit of Harrison's career watching him catch a wide open pass on NFL Prime Time and wondering how in the hell any team didn't have two guys covering him all the time. How did he get so open seemingly every bleeping week?
He was open, of course. He was awesome. He also had Manning throwing to him. Manning had other options too like Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark & even Brandon Stokely in the slot. He had Edggerin James at running back & catching the ball out of the backfield. That's really hard to stop. Pick your poison & good luck.
And another case of where the narrative >>> 'actual rankings.' It is not that Harrison and Owens are THE 91st and 90th BEST NFL PLAYERS OF ALL TIME. The grouping together gives Joe a chance to tell a story of two contrasting personalities and play styles of 2 very good to great receivers of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. And with Joe, it is the stories as much as the numbers that in sum (over 100 players) will tell a STORY of the NFL as viewed through the lens of those who played it a very high level. And yes, I am so here for it.
T.O. Seems to me to be the prototype of the receivers that everyone tried to get one of in the aughts early teens, seems the last few years teams have gone more for the pure speed and twitchiness in their wide-outs and the bigger TO types are now more used as the pass catching TE
There are exceptions of course like Julio, but it does seem for outside the hashmark receives teams are now looking more for the more pure speed types and sacrificing size
I think teams still covet size/speed outside wide receivers. Apart from Julio Jones, whom you mentioned, guys like Mike Evans, DK Metcalf, Courtland Sutton, Michael Thomas...
Speed has become premium, I agree, but the "T.O." style of receiver will always be the most premium--speed with size. It's so difficult to guard.
Three wide receivers first 11 years comparative stats: receptions; yards; td’s
Player A 1,022; 13,707; 122
Player B. 942; 15,123; 146
Player C 801; 11,715; 114
Player A Harrison
Player B Rice
Player C Owens
Why did I pick 11 years as a cutoff? Early in season 12 Harrison hurt his knee early and missed most of the season. He played the next year, but he was a shadow of his former self. He had Manning for the last 9 of these 11 years, but Jim Harbaugh the first 2. Rice had Montana and Young. Owens had several qb’s as Joe noted, but had several years with very good ones.
Owens missed 9 games one season near the end of this 11 year run., but Harrison and Rice missed 4 games each early in their careers.
Harrison and Owens are considered all time greats by most, but most would also say they pale in comparison to Rice. Harrison at least, was in the same ballpark for 11 years. It was the long, long career of Rice that separates him from all other receivers. He was like the energizer bunny- he just kept playing at a high level for so long. That possibly makes him number 1 on Joe’s list. (That’s where I’d put him). But for the first 11 years of their respective careers these 3 guys were pretty darn close. I don’t think most people appreciate that.
The Cowboys game with TO on the star was 2000. His rookie year was 1996.
Funny thing how guys like Owens and Ochocinco were looked upon as “controversial” and whatnot, while Harrison was brought up as the quiet role model. But outside the field, Harrison has by far the most questionable character.
Somehow neither Harrison or Owens was included in the seven wide receivers that made the Athletic list. Their list did include Hutson, Berry, and Rice that Joe mentioned, along with Elroy Hirsch, Lance Alworth, Paul Warfield, and Randy Moss.
I do not think there is going to be much if any overlap between the lists until we get to the top players. The Athletic seems to be going (IMO) too much for the older players when America was much smaller and football was not that big and trying to compare them to players of the last 20/30 years. I hope one of our smart guys here can set up a prediction pool. Predicting this one will be way harder than the Baseball 100.
Yes, Joe has repeatedly cited that modern athletes have improved the bounds of performance so much. I too would not be surprised if Joe's list was heavily weighted to more recent players. I had previously posted a Google Sheet for the Athletic list, and it showed a surprisingly even distribution in time. That Years Played curve will look much different for Joe's list.
Might also just be a factor of how young football is compared to baseball. Not really professional league until the 1920s and then I think most start talking about the 1940s. Modern era football (I think the merger is pretty close) is basically 70% of the time with a much bigger amount of players after we account for expansion and bigger rosters.
Also participants in the Posnanski/Tom Tango online Player A vs Player B experiment were almost certainly heavily weighting more recent players. Joe even mentioned that in the Keith Law Podcast promoting the Baseball 100. He claimed that people's opinions of NBA and NFL players are heavily biased towards later players, whereas baseball is biased against modern players in favor of Ruth/Cobb/Johnson.
Joe also seems to be batching some players together at neighboring numbers. This might be coincidence but it is more likely that he is massaging the list a bit much like he did with the Baseball 100 to get players onto numbers with significance.
I was wondering the same thing, but if so I haven't broken that code yet. I think so far it is just catching similar players from the same time period to compare/contrast.
As they say, people are complicated. On the field, Harrison epitomized the elite pro athletes I admire: reserve, if not humility, unimpeachable work ethic, consistency and professionalism, whereas Owens was a textbook example (maybe THE example) of the "have to get on SportsCenter" disease that seemed to infect wideouts since the 90s. But post-career, it's so hard to look at Harrison in the same way because of all the unsavory, potentially criminal, circumstances of multiple shooting incidents while Owens, to my knowledge, has never been accused of actually hurting anyone. The worst thing you can say is that his post-retirement conduct is sometimes kinda tacky.
I know these are not biographies, but it seems a little bit...off...to not include Harrison's post-career complications in an otherwise glowing review of his career and personality/perception.
I came here to say exactly this. It seemed an obvious plot twist given their reputations as players, but Joe decided to pass on it. I understand emphasizing the positive and/or not dwelling on the allegations, but to ignore them entirely and present Harrison solely as this silent, dependable guy seems…off, as Trent said.
I cannot remember exactly but Joe did not really bring up post retirement for the Baseball 100 unless is somehow really affected the perception of the player or whether they made it into the HOF. For whatever reason, Harrison's post football activities were not heavily reported or cared about. I actually only thought it was one instance with Harrison and then went back and realized it was multiple after reading Ed's comment. I think Joe just likes reporting and writing on the good stuff which means he runs into a buzzsaw when the hagiography wears off and the curtain is open like JoePa. I would put Soul of Baseball in the top biographies of all time because the person matched the legend and Joe is the best to tell those stories.
Fair, it only seemed incongruous to me because the post did go into detail on Owens' upbringing and backstory, so it's not like he was ignoring the more biographical aspects entirely.
Terrell Owens was the rare player whom I sports-hated when he was on rival teams (and he was on more than one of them) and somehow sports-hated even more when he was on my team - most of the time anyway.
He was unquestionably a great player, though, and certainly belongs on this list.
Owens celebrated on the Dallas star in 2000, not 1996
T.O. article, and no Garcia?
It's certainly true that Terrell Owens never committed any crimes and wasn't a violent guy. But, I mean, that's a pretty low bar. Hopefully, that's true of 99.9% of pro football players. So, we shouldn't leave it at "he wasn't a criminal". Yeah, OK. Zero credit for that. He was a locker room cancer. The type that divides locker rooms and creates media drama that coaches hate & want to stamp out at all costs. I'm quite sure Terrell is a decent guy who just didn't learn to filter his comments & frustrated/angered his teammates (and coaches). I think we all know people like that at our work place. We're always really happy when they're gone. As far as I know, all the people like that I've encountered weren't criminals either.
I spent quite a bit of Harrison's career watching him catch a wide open pass on NFL Prime Time and wondering how in the hell any team didn't have two guys covering him all the time. How did he get so open seemingly every bleeping week?
He was open, of course. He was awesome. He also had Manning throwing to him. Manning had other options too like Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark & even Brandon Stokely in the slot. He had Edggerin James at running back & catching the ball out of the backfield. That's really hard to stop. Pick your poison & good luck.
And another case of where the narrative >>> 'actual rankings.' It is not that Harrison and Owens are THE 91st and 90th BEST NFL PLAYERS OF ALL TIME. The grouping together gives Joe a chance to tell a story of two contrasting personalities and play styles of 2 very good to great receivers of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. And with Joe, it is the stories as much as the numbers that in sum (over 100 players) will tell a STORY of the NFL as viewed through the lens of those who played it a very high level. And yes, I am so here for it.
T.O. Seems to me to be the prototype of the receivers that everyone tried to get one of in the aughts early teens, seems the last few years teams have gone more for the pure speed and twitchiness in their wide-outs and the bigger TO types are now more used as the pass catching TE
There are exceptions of course like Julio, but it does seem for outside the hashmark receives teams are now looking more for the more pure speed types and sacrificing size
I think teams still covet size/speed outside wide receivers. Apart from Julio Jones, whom you mentioned, guys like Mike Evans, DK Metcalf, Courtland Sutton, Michael Thomas...
Speed has become premium, I agree, but the "T.O." style of receiver will always be the most premium--speed with size. It's so difficult to guard.
Three wide receivers first 11 years comparative stats: receptions; yards; td’s
Player A 1,022; 13,707; 122
Player B. 942; 15,123; 146
Player C 801; 11,715; 114
Player A Harrison
Player B Rice
Player C Owens
Why did I pick 11 years as a cutoff? Early in season 12 Harrison hurt his knee early and missed most of the season. He played the next year, but he was a shadow of his former self. He had Manning for the last 9 of these 11 years, but Jim Harbaugh the first 2. Rice had Montana and Young. Owens had several qb’s as Joe noted, but had several years with very good ones.
Owens missed 9 games one season near the end of this 11 year run., but Harrison and Rice missed 4 games each early in their careers.
Harrison and Owens are considered all time greats by most, but most would also say they pale in comparison to Rice. Harrison at least, was in the same ballpark for 11 years. It was the long, long career of Rice that separates him from all other receivers. He was like the energizer bunny- he just kept playing at a high level for so long. That possibly makes him number 1 on Joe’s list. (That’s where I’d put him). But for the first 11 years of their respective careers these 3 guys were pretty darn close. I don’t think most people appreciate that.
The Cowboys game with TO on the star was 2000. His rookie year was 1996.
Funny thing how guys like Owens and Ochocinco were looked upon as “controversial” and whatnot, while Harrison was brought up as the quiet role model. But outside the field, Harrison has by far the most questionable character.
** F101: ONE OF THESE NFL THINGS (is Not Like the Others) **
Player Nick Names
• The Assassin
• Night Train
• The Molester
• Bambi
MVPs
• Johnny Unitas
• Terry Bradshaw
• Peyton Manning
• Mark Moseley
Team/Unit Nick Names
• Fearsome Foursome
• Greatest Show on Turf
• Steel Curtain
• Bungles
Penalties
• Horse-Collar Tackle
• Helmet-to-Helmet Collision
• Spearing
• Leaping
© 2021 S. Street (F101) Corp.
And then there is this for T.O. https://youtu.be/jL9tfB1OU5I
Somehow neither Harrison or Owens was included in the seven wide receivers that made the Athletic list. Their list did include Hutson, Berry, and Rice that Joe mentioned, along with Elroy Hirsch, Lance Alworth, Paul Warfield, and Randy Moss.
I do not think there is going to be much if any overlap between the lists until we get to the top players. The Athletic seems to be going (IMO) too much for the older players when America was much smaller and football was not that big and trying to compare them to players of the last 20/30 years. I hope one of our smart guys here can set up a prediction pool. Predicting this one will be way harder than the Baseball 100.
Yes, Joe has repeatedly cited that modern athletes have improved the bounds of performance so much. I too would not be surprised if Joe's list was heavily weighted to more recent players. I had previously posted a Google Sheet for the Athletic list, and it showed a surprisingly even distribution in time. That Years Played curve will look much different for Joe's list.
Might also just be a factor of how young football is compared to baseball. Not really professional league until the 1920s and then I think most start talking about the 1940s. Modern era football (I think the merger is pretty close) is basically 70% of the time with a much bigger amount of players after we account for expansion and bigger rosters.
Also participants in the Posnanski/Tom Tango online Player A vs Player B experiment were almost certainly heavily weighting more recent players. Joe even mentioned that in the Keith Law Podcast promoting the Baseball 100. He claimed that people's opinions of NBA and NFL players are heavily biased towards later players, whereas baseball is biased against modern players in favor of Ruth/Cobb/Johnson.
Do u have a link to that podcast by any chance?
Yes. The podcast is at https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-baseball-100-w-joe-posnanski/id1499877854?i=1000536213388
Joe also seems to be batching some players together at neighboring numbers. This might be coincidence but it is more likely that he is massaging the list a bit much like he did with the Baseball 100 to get players onto numbers with significance.
I was wondering the same thing, but if so I haven't broken that code yet. I think so far it is just catching similar players from the same time period to compare/contrast.
I agree. I think the points of contrast give Joe the angle he wants/needs on some players
I loved when TO did sit-ups in his driveway. I would take that dude every day the week. What a football player and personality. Thanks for this, Joe.
As they say, people are complicated. On the field, Harrison epitomized the elite pro athletes I admire: reserve, if not humility, unimpeachable work ethic, consistency and professionalism, whereas Owens was a textbook example (maybe THE example) of the "have to get on SportsCenter" disease that seemed to infect wideouts since the 90s. But post-career, it's so hard to look at Harrison in the same way because of all the unsavory, potentially criminal, circumstances of multiple shooting incidents while Owens, to my knowledge, has never been accused of actually hurting anyone. The worst thing you can say is that his post-retirement conduct is sometimes kinda tacky.
I know these are not biographies, but it seems a little bit...off...to not include Harrison's post-career complications in an otherwise glowing review of his career and personality/perception.
O.J.'s summary will be ... interesting, due to the fame (commercials, acting) and notoriety (yes, that) of his post-football life.
Yeah, I kept waiting for the twist of how, for all of Owens' drama it was Harrison who, uh, was prominently involved in a shooting, and it never came.
I came here to say exactly this. It seemed an obvious plot twist given their reputations as players, but Joe decided to pass on it. I understand emphasizing the positive and/or not dwelling on the allegations, but to ignore them entirely and present Harrison solely as this silent, dependable guy seems…off, as Trent said.
I cannot remember exactly but Joe did not really bring up post retirement for the Baseball 100 unless is somehow really affected the perception of the player or whether they made it into the HOF. For whatever reason, Harrison's post football activities were not heavily reported or cared about. I actually only thought it was one instance with Harrison and then went back and realized it was multiple after reading Ed's comment. I think Joe just likes reporting and writing on the good stuff which means he runs into a buzzsaw when the hagiography wears off and the curtain is open like JoePa. I would put Soul of Baseball in the top biographies of all time because the person matched the legend and Joe is the best to tell those stories.
Fair, it only seemed incongruous to me because the post did go into detail on Owens' upbringing and backstory, so it's not like he was ignoring the more biographical aspects entirely.
I somehow had missed the shooting incidents that occurred around Harrison. That certainly does cast a different view on him as an individual.
Terrell Owens was the rare player whom I sports-hated when he was on rival teams (and he was on more than one of them) and somehow sports-hated even more when he was on my team - most of the time anyway.
He was unquestionably a great player, though, and certainly belongs on this list.