There are countless ways that a pro football quarterback is different from every other position in every other team sport, but I’d say most of them can be summed up with this football truism: A quarterback’s job is to win championships.
No longer a trick question.....the last player to lead the league in passing yards, and lead his team to a Super Bowl victory was....Patrick Mahomes :)
So he didn't throw often. He could have thrown EFFECTIVELY. An 81.6 passer rating behind the best offensive line in history with a Hall of Fame WR, TE and RB is not good. Jim Plunkett won 2 Super Bowls and wasn't great either
Come on Joe, you're better than this. It's not like golf or tennis where the best player wins. Just look at the NFL as of today. Stafford is the MVP front runner on the best team in the league, but for the past 10 years or so he was a loser, according to your logic. Either he had the best off season in history, or he just moved to a good team. Pretty sure it's the latter. Lots of awful QBs have been lucky enough to play for a SB winner, and many great QBs have not. Football is the ultimate team game, and no QB has ever won or lost a SB, they've only played on a team that did.
First an aside. Surprised to see how phenomenal Stafford’s career has been to date. Despite being on - w exception of couple years - god awful Detroit teams where every team knew he was the offense. Like Marino. Yet Marino never got that change of scenery, and given his love of Miami, unclear he ever wanted it. Look forward to seeing what Stafford does w the new script.
Aikman definitively was the hub of a wagon wheel w a lot of HoF spokes. Can’t recall a team being as dominant every year as his Cowboys. Even great Pats dynasty felt more like old 49ers dynasty, where the wins aren’t inevitable but somehow there was always a bit of magic lurking at the end (aka Montana, Brady). No magic w Aikman’s Cowboys. Straight on, come and get it. Even Parcells, who loved that style, had no answers. Outside Buddy Ryan’s Philly D’s, Aikman’s Cowboys games felt over from 1st whistle. It was like watching a Roman chariot roar into a village that had only known wooden peg wheels. And who was holding the reins, standing tall in the chariot?
Should there be an equal number of: quarterbacks; running backs; receivers (including TE); offensive linemen; defensive linemen; linebackers; and defensive backs? That would give fourteen of each plus one kick returner and one kicker.
There are 30 starting pitchers on The Baseball 100. Maybe there should be 30 quarterbacks on The Football 100. That would give 11 each of the other six position groups, leaving room for Billy ‘White Shoes’ Johnson, two kickers (one bare foot and one straight on) and one punter (Randall Cunningham).
One of my favourite kick returners was Leon Bright (FSU). He was a star for a few years in the CFL, making the all-CFL team at wide receiver one year. He was an electric kick returner, a lot of fun. I do not think he had much of an NFL career but he did distinguish himself in an unfortunate way early in his stint with the NY Giants.
The CFL has a rule called ‘no yards’. No player on the kicking team is allowed within a 5 yard radius of the kick returner. There is no need for a fair catch rule because the returner has this five yard buffer, a sort DMZ, to work with.
I think it was in Leon Bright’s first preseason game in the NFL (it might have been the first regular season game) when he was in his end zone to field a punt. I guess the punt had a lot of hang time or the Giants did not block well or something. Whatever the reason, at the moment when the ball got to Leon Bright’s hands, half the kicking team absolutely obliterated him. He had forgotten what league he was in.
Aikman's stats were very good in the post-season, but he still didn't need to throw as often as the huge numbers we see often see now (e.g., Stafford). Aikman only exceeded 300 yards in four of his seventeen playoff games, with his highest playoff total of 380 yards in 53 attempts in the 1995 NFC Championship trying to catch up with Steve Young's 49ers. (The 49ers were up 31-14 at the half, partially due to a pick-six from Aikman. Young only needed to throw for 155 yards in 29 attempts.) In the 17 playoff games, Aikman only averaged 226 yards, with 23 TDs to 17 interceptions. Of course the playoffs have the highest level of competition so it's not surprising if stats drop off.
Aikman wasn't among the 17 QBs on the Athletic list, although Montana, Elway, Young, and Marino were included from the same late 80's through the 90's era. Their list also had five more recent QBs (Favre, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Brady), and they hadn't yet included Mahomes. Even with Joe's emphasis on recent players, it will be interesting to see if all of these nine QBs make it on his list, not to mention earlier QBs like Bradshaw, Starr, and Graham that had a similar aptitude for winning championships. I think we're going to run out of spots on Joe's 101. Any votes on which ones may fall off?
So far there are only two quarterbacks on the list out of thirteen players. Maybe there will be a relatively equitable distribution among the positions. That would probably result in a better list (and book) than having 40 Qbs, which would be easy enough to do.
On the other hand, with Troy Aikman at 89 I think every one of the nine of recent vintage you mention are locks to make it. And if Aikman is in, I see no viable argument for leaving Staubach out, in which case Bradshaw must be in also. If Bradshaw is in, how can Namath not be in? But if Namath is in, then Bart Starr must be in. If Starr is in, why would Graham and Baugh be out of the top 101? And on it goes until I am back to 40 quarterbacks.
I have no idea what Joe is going to do (aside from putting Brian Sipe at #17 and Bernie Kosar first on the honourable mention list).
So far, all of Joe’s picks have been from the Super Bowl era. I think his final list will be very heavily weighted in that direction. Jim Brown will have to be included from pre super bowl days. Crossovers- both pre and post Super Bowlers - Unitas and Starr would have to make the list, right? I personally think Otto Graham should too- 8 championships in 9 years. But I don’t expect many.
One thing I really enjoyed about The Athletic list was seeing a bunch of old timers. Especially Lenny Moore and Gino Marchetti. When I was just a pup, I saw Lenny Moore make the greatest catch against the Lions I ever saw. After reading the story I googled Lenny Moore highlights and was able to watch that play again. Ain’t the internet great - at least sometimes!
I don’t think we’ll see so many old timers on Joe’s list. And in a way, he’s right. Players are so much bigger and stronger now that for the most part the modern player just physically overwhelms the old timers.
I agree on all but Namath. So far, Mel Blount's career of 1970-1983 is the earliest player on Joe's list. About half of the Athletic 100 predated Blount, so that should buy Joe some breathing room.
Still, Joe has selected 12 players so far and there are only two overlaps with the Athletic list. I guess that shouldn't be too surprising. If you used Blount as the dividing line, you could subdivide the Athletic list into a Classic 50 and a Modern 50. I could easily see Joe expanding on his own version of a Modern 50 (hence his new entries not in the Athletic 100) with a few throwback picks into the Classic list.
I was a baby when Joe Namath won his league MVPs and then the Super Bowl and Super Bowl MVP, so I know him only as Broadway Joe the icon and not at all as a player. Aside from a few highlight clips, I have never seen him play.
I must say that the numbers are hilarious even compared to the 1980s let alone to today. He threw interceptions like the first-coming of Vinny Testaverde. He sure aired it out for his era. It must have been fun to watch for the first five years or so.
You have to take in consideration for the era, when corners could basically beat up a WR all the way down the field, or practically knock them down and sit on them without a penalty. There was no such thing as a timing route. The average INT rate during his career was 5.5%, and he is only a little bit above that as a gunslinger of his time. The 5 years before the injuries set in, he was pretty special.
Thanks for your post Khazad. I agree, and the point of my post was supposed to be - why is Joe Namath not held in higher regard? Is he underrated now, having possibly been overrated for a time? It got away from me.
I think Namath should be on this list. I have no idea whether he is one of the top 101 payers of all time. I do not know how to compare the thirtieth best quarterback (if I could even figure out who that is) with the fifth best corner back or the fifteenth best guard. But I feel that Namath should be among the twenty quarterbacks whose stories should be told, regardless of whether Namath is one of the twenty ‘best’ quarterbacks of all time (although he might very well be).
I think Namath’s story is too big and too important to the history of the game to be left out of a book of the nature of The Football 101. And I will be surprised if Joe passes up the opportunity to include Broadway Joe in his book.
No longer a trick question.....the last player to lead the league in passing yards, and lead his team to a Super Bowl victory was....Patrick Mahomes :)
So he didn't throw often. He could have thrown EFFECTIVELY. An 81.6 passer rating behind the best offensive line in history with a Hall of Fame WR, TE and RB is not good. Jim Plunkett won 2 Super Bowls and wasn't great either
Come on Joe, you're better than this. It's not like golf or tennis where the best player wins. Just look at the NFL as of today. Stafford is the MVP front runner on the best team in the league, but for the past 10 years or so he was a loser, according to your logic. Either he had the best off season in history, or he just moved to a good team. Pretty sure it's the latter. Lots of awful QBs have been lucky enough to play for a SB winner, and many great QBs have not. Football is the ultimate team game, and no QB has ever won or lost a SB, they've only played on a team that did.
First an aside. Surprised to see how phenomenal Stafford’s career has been to date. Despite being on - w exception of couple years - god awful Detroit teams where every team knew he was the offense. Like Marino. Yet Marino never got that change of scenery, and given his love of Miami, unclear he ever wanted it. Look forward to seeing what Stafford does w the new script.
Aikman definitively was the hub of a wagon wheel w a lot of HoF spokes. Can’t recall a team being as dominant every year as his Cowboys. Even great Pats dynasty felt more like old 49ers dynasty, where the wins aren’t inevitable but somehow there was always a bit of magic lurking at the end (aka Montana, Brady). No magic w Aikman’s Cowboys. Straight on, come and get it. Even Parcells, who loved that style, had no answers. Outside Buddy Ryan’s Philly D’s, Aikman’s Cowboys games felt over from 1st whistle. It was like watching a Roman chariot roar into a village that had only known wooden peg wheels. And who was holding the reins, standing tall in the chariot?
(the coincidental timing of Parcell’s ‘1st retirement’ was not lost on us NFC E fans).😉
Nice tie-in via Bench to the Baseball 100. This is what I enjoy about JoeP lists - the rabbit hole connections.
Bench’s hometown is Binger, not Banger, Okla.
How many quarterbacks should make this list?
Should there be an equal number of: quarterbacks; running backs; receivers (including TE); offensive linemen; defensive linemen; linebackers; and defensive backs? That would give fourteen of each plus one kick returner and one kicker.
There are 30 starting pitchers on The Baseball 100. Maybe there should be 30 quarterbacks on The Football 100. That would give 11 each of the other six position groups, leaving room for Billy ‘White Shoes’ Johnson, two kickers (one bare foot and one straight on) and one punter (Randall Cunningham).
Regarding your Cunningham quip - I was at UNLV when he was there. He is the best punter I have ever seen and that is not a joke.
Ahem. I assume your Billy white shoes Johnson reference was for the kick returner position. Devin Hester would like a word with you!😁
Devin Hester fumbled 41 times in his career. Factor that in and both Billy White Shoes Johnson and Cordarelle Patterson are clearly better than Hester
One of my favourite kick returners was Leon Bright (FSU). He was a star for a few years in the CFL, making the all-CFL team at wide receiver one year. He was an electric kick returner, a lot of fun. I do not think he had much of an NFL career but he did distinguish himself in an unfortunate way early in his stint with the NY Giants.
The CFL has a rule called ‘no yards’. No player on the kicking team is allowed within a 5 yard radius of the kick returner. There is no need for a fair catch rule because the returner has this five yard buffer, a sort DMZ, to work with.
I think it was in Leon Bright’s first preseason game in the NFL (it might have been the first regular season game) when he was in his end zone to field a punt. I guess the punt had a lot of hang time or the Giants did not block well or something. Whatever the reason, at the moment when the ball got to Leon Bright’s hands, half the kicking team absolutely obliterated him. He had forgotten what league he was in.
30 seems high for QBs. I'd put the over/under somewhere between 15 and 20.
This makes sense to me. There are so many stories to tell about non-quarterbacks.
It will be interesting to see which stories are not told. I imagine it will depend a bit on what the target audience for the book is.
There were 18 QBs on the Athletic list - but 10 of them were in the top 25.
Khazad, I only count 17 QBs in their list. Could you see if I have anyone's position mislabeled in the Google Sheet for the Athletic 100? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WYvXTpG7yjLh9qjlT684PGxzx3_9DyvjTlrGI4VQRVw/edit?usp=sharing
Looks like you have Sid Luckman down as a C instead of QB from what I can see.
Good catch! Thanks. I fixed it.
Yes!
One of the things about Troy Aikman that I admire the most is that he does not like to dwell on the past.
https://youtu.be/tE8znQmwDBo
Aikman. Unbelievable.
One of my all time favorite commercials.
Mine too. It is a HoF-worthy performance by Aikman. And that ring tone is ridiculous. It cracks me up every time.
I'm a little confused on this one. Why would Aikman need to sacrifice his numbers in the regular season but not the post season in order to win?
Aikman's stats were very good in the post-season, but he still didn't need to throw as often as the huge numbers we see often see now (e.g., Stafford). Aikman only exceeded 300 yards in four of his seventeen playoff games, with his highest playoff total of 380 yards in 53 attempts in the 1995 NFC Championship trying to catch up with Steve Young's 49ers. (The 49ers were up 31-14 at the half, partially due to a pick-six from Aikman. Young only needed to throw for 155 yards in 29 attempts.) In the 17 playoff games, Aikman only averaged 226 yards, with 23 TDs to 17 interceptions. Of course the playoffs have the highest level of competition so it's not surprising if stats drop off.
Great writing as always.
Aikman wasn't among the 17 QBs on the Athletic list, although Montana, Elway, Young, and Marino were included from the same late 80's through the 90's era. Their list also had five more recent QBs (Favre, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Brady), and they hadn't yet included Mahomes. Even with Joe's emphasis on recent players, it will be interesting to see if all of these nine QBs make it on his list, not to mention earlier QBs like Bradshaw, Starr, and Graham that had a similar aptitude for winning championships. I think we're going to run out of spots on Joe's 101. Any votes on which ones may fall off?
So far there are only two quarterbacks on the list out of thirteen players. Maybe there will be a relatively equitable distribution among the positions. That would probably result in a better list (and book) than having 40 Qbs, which would be easy enough to do.
On the other hand, with Troy Aikman at 89 I think every one of the nine of recent vintage you mention are locks to make it. And if Aikman is in, I see no viable argument for leaving Staubach out, in which case Bradshaw must be in also. If Bradshaw is in, how can Namath not be in? But if Namath is in, then Bart Starr must be in. If Starr is in, why would Graham and Baugh be out of the top 101? And on it goes until I am back to 40 quarterbacks.
I have no idea what Joe is going to do (aside from putting Brian Sipe at #17 and Bernie Kosar first on the honourable mention list).
There's no reason for Namath to be on the list regardless of who else is on it...
So far, all of Joe’s picks have been from the Super Bowl era. I think his final list will be very heavily weighted in that direction. Jim Brown will have to be included from pre super bowl days. Crossovers- both pre and post Super Bowlers - Unitas and Starr would have to make the list, right? I personally think Otto Graham should too- 8 championships in 9 years. But I don’t expect many.
One thing I really enjoyed about The Athletic list was seeing a bunch of old timers. Especially Lenny Moore and Gino Marchetti. When I was just a pup, I saw Lenny Moore make the greatest catch against the Lions I ever saw. After reading the story I googled Lenny Moore highlights and was able to watch that play again. Ain’t the internet great - at least sometimes!
I don’t think we’ll see so many old timers on Joe’s list. And in a way, he’s right. Players are so much bigger and stronger now that for the most part the modern player just physically overwhelms the old timers.
I agree on all but Namath. So far, Mel Blount's career of 1970-1983 is the earliest player on Joe's list. About half of the Athletic 100 predated Blount, so that should buy Joe some breathing room.
Still, Joe has selected 12 players so far and there are only two overlaps with the Athletic list. I guess that shouldn't be too surprising. If you used Blount as the dividing line, you could subdivide the Athletic list into a Classic 50 and a Modern 50. I could easily see Joe expanding on his own version of a Modern 50 (hence his new entries not in the Athletic 100) with a few throwback picks into the Classic list.
It will be a fun list regardless.
I was a baby when Joe Namath won his league MVPs and then the Super Bowl and Super Bowl MVP, so I know him only as Broadway Joe the icon and not at all as a player. Aside from a few highlight clips, I have never seen him play.
I must say that the numbers are hilarious even compared to the 1980s let alone to today. He threw interceptions like the first-coming of Vinny Testaverde. He sure aired it out for his era. It must have been fun to watch for the first five years or so.
You have to take in consideration for the era, when corners could basically beat up a WR all the way down the field, or practically knock them down and sit on them without a penalty. There was no such thing as a timing route. The average INT rate during his career was 5.5%, and he is only a little bit above that as a gunslinger of his time. The 5 years before the injuries set in, he was pretty special.
Thanks for your post Khazad. I agree, and the point of my post was supposed to be - why is Joe Namath not held in higher regard? Is he underrated now, having possibly been overrated for a time? It got away from me.
I think Namath should be on this list. I have no idea whether he is one of the top 101 payers of all time. I do not know how to compare the thirtieth best quarterback (if I could even figure out who that is) with the fifth best corner back or the fifteenth best guard. But I feel that Namath should be among the twenty quarterbacks whose stories should be told, regardless of whether Namath is one of the twenty ‘best’ quarterbacks of all time (although he might very well be).
I think Namath’s story is too big and too important to the history of the game to be left out of a book of the nature of The Football 101. And I will be surprised if Joe passes up the opportunity to include Broadway Joe in his book.
you were right :|
I am looking forward to Joe’s triple essay on Dan Fouts, Warren Moon and Joe Namath (84, 83, 82).