Dahlen and O'Neil need to be inducted this year, same with Allen and Minoso. Too bad guys like Redding, Johnson, Boyer, Kaat, and Pierce won't make it. I wish the Era Committees would just go to a straight up/down vote instead of a four vote limit
I believe that Buck O'Neil belongs in the Hall, simply because of his post-playing contributions to the game and as what I would call being "the leading ambassador of the Negro Leagues". The others...well, we'll see
Are the voters permitted to discuss the candidates as a group? If that's the case, it makes it far more likely that people would get elected and would explain why a guy like Baines can go from zero support to getting elected.
Even against the mathematical odds I can’t imagine Buck not getting it this time. With the shock and outcry last time he was up for it, I have a hard time seeing anybody leaving Buck off their ballot. But who knows…I guess anything is possible *shudders*.
There are a few reasons why we shouldn't treat the "Hall of Fame" seriously. Today, Joe correctly highlights the not-fit-for-purpose voting system. Sixteen very good candidates: none are elected. Three OK, 13 poor: three are elected. That looks like it wasn't thought through, or was thought through by someone for whom thinking was not a strong point.
What the Hall could do is decide the number to be elected, and then elect them. That way standards are maintained at exactly the level that the Hall wants.
But the really good thing about the Hall is that it means that we get to read about certain baseball players. And OK, writers could write about them anyway. But sometimes they don't write about them unless they are on the ballot.
I am so looking forward to this series. The actual voting will just be annoying.
The Pro Football HoF committee discusses each of the HoF candidates together before they vote. If somehow the Baseball Hall voters could talk first, maybe they could get a similar consensus on at least the top nominees to make sure that the votes aren't distributed too thinly for anybody to get elected.
I'm a big Dick Allen guy. Not only was he a great player, but he did a lot of his work in a very down offensive era. His defense does need some ignoring however. He would have been a great DH. For kids that grew up in the 60s and early 70s, Allen was larger than life. I saw him play in person and he was menacing at that plate. That buggy whip swing, which was even more pronounced than Frank Robinson's, was the most imitated batting style on the streets. If I recall, his era was also very underrepresented for the HOF, as well. Allen's gotta go in this time. It's really a bummer that he won't be alive to give the speech. I would have loved to have seen that. I mean it could be anything from him refusing to show up, giving a short speech or going on a rant. Woulda been great.
Is Allen's era underrepresented? Just a quick glance at players at hitting positions (1B, 3B, LF, RF) whose careers overlapped with Allen for at least five years and are in the Hall:
Aaron
Carew (if you count him as 1B and not 2B)
Cepeda
Clemente
Jackson
Kaline
Killibrew
McCovey
Perez
B. Robinson
F. Robinson
Santo
Schmidt
Stargell
B. Williams
Yaz
I may have missed some in my quick scroll.
Is this less representation than other comparable eras?
He played so important a role in getting professional baseball up and running in Japan (organizing and leading exhibition games and tours for years, on both sides of the Pacific, for one) that he was the first American named to the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame.
O'Doul and O'Neill are a great pair. Both good, but not great players in their leagues. Lefty did most and Buck all of their playing outside the spotlights in the PCL - when it was really, really close to a major league, not the developmental league the vast majority of us remember - and the NeL resepectively. Both great representatives of baseball as story tellers & raconteurs. O'Doul vitally important in bringing baseball to Japan and keeping it going after the War. O'Neill hugely important in keeping the memory of the Negro Leagues alive.
O'Neil and Dahlen should be automatic. Quite frankly, the Hall blew it on both of them years ago. Of the remaining, I think Dick Allen should be in but that's it. Minoso, Kaat and Olivia are good but not Hall-worthy although I wouldn't put up a fuss if any of the three got enough votes. I mean, it's not like they were like Harold Baines horrible.
Yep. I've read his numerous comments about Minoso. My stance has always been that the HoF is only for the very best. That's not what it has become. And, someday, maybe I'll get used to it. ;-)
The Hall of Fame was never about only the very best. Candy Cummings was inducted thirty years before Joe Pos was born. It has always been about the story, about the history, about the legend of the game. Minnie Minoso - without any credit for his play in Cuba and pioneering role in the majors - is every bit as good as, for example, 1939 inductee George Sisler. Holding Minoso to a higher standard is ahistorical
I disagree about Minosa. I think he has a strong case. He lost a few peak years due to segregation, starting his MLB career in his age 25 season, and even without that BB-Ref has him right on the cusp as the 18th left fielder:
Left-field (18th):
53.8 career WAR | 39.7 7yr-peak WAR | 46.7 JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162
Average HOF LF (out of 20):
65.7 career WAR | 41.7 7yr-peak WAR | 53.7 JAWS | 4.8 WAR/162
Of the seventeen above him, all but Barry Bonds, Pete Rose, Manny Ramirez, along with the deadball era's Sherry Magee are in the Hall. Seven HoFers are below him, including Ralph Kiner, Jim Rice, Lou Brock, and Monte Irvin. I know the bar shouldn't be set at the lowest level of those already in, but he is in elite company even with some of his prime years being in the Negro Leagues.
"... even with some of his prime years being in the Negro Leagues."
I'd nitpick. He was 22 in his last year in the NeLs. It was more a case of being held in the minors for the then Cleveland Indians because of the hesitancy to promote black players than being held in the Negro Leagues.
Oh, I'd also suggest that listing Irvin as being below Minosa misses the former's 10 years in the Negro Leagues (and one year in the military during WWII).
I am hoping Joe’s well thought out reasoning for Buck and Minnie sway voters. They are both well deserving and should have been so honored in their lifetimes. I personally would love to see Tony Olivia and Dick Allen also inducted.
Not sure how Joe is going to come up with a Buck O’Neil story we have yet to hear but looking forward to it nonetheless. I think this is the year for him and Minnie.
Interesting ballot. Candidates get the good vibes of being put on the ballot, but most of them have no chance of being elected and the HoF knows it. Classic non-vite.
I'm not sure if I'm missing them or not, but is the Maris article the last baseball article that's been publkished?
Yes, that was the last one. It's not optimistic Joe's series will finish. Jay Jaffe did finish his Golden Days Era series (https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2022-golden-days-era-committee-candidate-danny-murtaugh/ was his last) on FanGraphs. He just started his Early Baseball Era series (https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2022-early-baseball-era-committee-candidates-bill-dahlen-and-allie-reynolds/).
Dahlen and O'Neil need to be inducted this year, same with Allen and Minoso. Too bad guys like Redding, Johnson, Boyer, Kaat, and Pierce won't make it. I wish the Era Committees would just go to a straight up/down vote instead of a four vote limit
I believe that Buck O'Neil belongs in the Hall, simply because of his post-playing contributions to the game and as what I would call being "the leading ambassador of the Negro Leagues". The others...well, we'll see
Are the voters permitted to discuss the candidates as a group? If that's the case, it makes it far more likely that people would get elected and would explain why a guy like Baines can go from zero support to getting elected.
Even against the mathematical odds I can’t imagine Buck not getting it this time. With the shock and outcry last time he was up for it, I have a hard time seeing anybody leaving Buck off their ballot. But who knows…I guess anything is possible *shudders*.
It's like the formula for The Good Place that essentially makes it impossible for anyone to ever get into it.
Donaldson, O’Neil and Redding would make up for long inexcusable absences- let’s correct a broken Hall of Fame!
There are a few reasons why we shouldn't treat the "Hall of Fame" seriously. Today, Joe correctly highlights the not-fit-for-purpose voting system. Sixteen very good candidates: none are elected. Three OK, 13 poor: three are elected. That looks like it wasn't thought through, or was thought through by someone for whom thinking was not a strong point.
What the Hall could do is decide the number to be elected, and then elect them. That way standards are maintained at exactly the level that the Hall wants.
But the really good thing about the Hall is that it means that we get to read about certain baseball players. And OK, writers could write about them anyway. But sometimes they don't write about them unless they are on the ballot.
I am so looking forward to this series. The actual voting will just be annoying.
The Pro Football HoF committee discusses each of the HoF candidates together before they vote. If somehow the Baseball Hall voters could talk first, maybe they could get a similar consensus on at least the top nominees to make sure that the votes aren't distributed too thinly for anybody to get elected.
I'm a big Dick Allen guy. Not only was he a great player, but he did a lot of his work in a very down offensive era. His defense does need some ignoring however. He would have been a great DH. For kids that grew up in the 60s and early 70s, Allen was larger than life. I saw him play in person and he was menacing at that plate. That buggy whip swing, which was even more pronounced than Frank Robinson's, was the most imitated batting style on the streets. If I recall, his era was also very underrepresented for the HOF, as well. Allen's gotta go in this time. It's really a bummer that he won't be alive to give the speech. I would have loved to have seen that. I mean it could be anything from him refusing to show up, giving a short speech or going on a rant. Woulda been great.
Is Allen's era underrepresented? Just a quick glance at players at hitting positions (1B, 3B, LF, RF) whose careers overlapped with Allen for at least five years and are in the Hall:
Aaron
Carew (if you count him as 1B and not 2B)
Cepeda
Clemente
Jackson
Kaline
Killibrew
McCovey
Perez
B. Robinson
F. Robinson
Santo
Schmidt
Stargell
B. Williams
Yaz
I may have missed some in my quick scroll.
Is this less representation than other comparable eras?
This, I am looking forward to.
Your Hall of Fame writing is always some of your best writing - looking forward to it!
Nice to see Lefty O'Doul on the ballot.
He played so important a role in getting professional baseball up and running in Japan (organizing and leading exhibition games and tours for years, on both sides of the Pacific, for one) that he was the first American named to the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame.
O'Doul and O'Neill are a great pair. Both good, but not great players in their leagues. Lefty did most and Buck all of their playing outside the spotlights in the PCL - when it was really, really close to a major league, not the developmental league the vast majority of us remember - and the NeL resepectively. Both great representatives of baseball as story tellers & raconteurs. O'Doul vitally important in bringing baseball to Japan and keeping it going after the War. O'Neill hugely important in keeping the memory of the Negro Leagues alive.
O'Neil and Dahlen should be automatic. Quite frankly, the Hall blew it on both of them years ago. Of the remaining, I think Dick Allen should be in but that's it. Minoso, Kaat and Olivia are good but not Hall-worthy although I wouldn't put up a fuss if any of the three got enough votes. I mean, it's not like they were like Harold Baines horrible.
Joe will disagree with you on Minosa. He was the first player he included on his brief Outsiders list on the Athletic (https://theathletic.com/2344240/2021/01/26/hall-of-fame-outsiders-minnie-minoso/). Buck O'Neal of course was #2. The full list is at https://theathletic.com/2202108/2020/11/27/the-outsiders-hall-of-fame-top-100/
Thanks for these links. I had not read the for some time and am doing so now; some great writing.
Yep. I've read his numerous comments about Minoso. My stance has always been that the HoF is only for the very best. That's not what it has become. And, someday, maybe I'll get used to it. ;-)
The Hall of Fame was never about only the very best. Candy Cummings was inducted thirty years before Joe Pos was born. It has always been about the story, about the history, about the legend of the game. Minnie Minoso - without any credit for his play in Cuba and pioneering role in the majors - is every bit as good as, for example, 1939 inductee George Sisler. Holding Minoso to a higher standard is ahistorical
I disagree about Minosa. I think he has a strong case. He lost a few peak years due to segregation, starting his MLB career in his age 25 season, and even without that BB-Ref has him right on the cusp as the 18th left fielder:
Left-field (18th):
53.8 career WAR | 39.7 7yr-peak WAR | 46.7 JAWS | 4.5 WAR/162
Average HOF LF (out of 20):
65.7 career WAR | 41.7 7yr-peak WAR | 53.7 JAWS | 4.8 WAR/162
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_LF.shtml#jaws
Of the seventeen above him, all but Barry Bonds, Pete Rose, Manny Ramirez, along with the deadball era's Sherry Magee are in the Hall. Seven HoFers are below him, including Ralph Kiner, Jim Rice, Lou Brock, and Monte Irvin. I know the bar shouldn't be set at the lowest level of those already in, but he is in elite company even with some of his prime years being in the Negro Leagues.
"... even with some of his prime years being in the Negro Leagues."
I'd nitpick. He was 22 in his last year in the NeLs. It was more a case of being held in the minors for the then Cleveland Indians because of the hesitancy to promote black players than being held in the Negro Leagues.
Oh, I'd also suggest that listing Irvin as being below Minosa misses the former's 10 years in the Negro Leagues (and one year in the military during WWII).
I am hoping Joe’s well thought out reasoning for Buck and Minnie sway voters. They are both well deserving and should have been so honored in their lifetimes. I personally would love to see Tony Olivia and Dick Allen also inducted.
Not sure how Joe is going to come up with a Buck O’Neil story we have yet to hear but looking forward to it nonetheless. I think this is the year for him and Minnie.
Interesting ballot. Candidates get the good vibes of being put on the ballot, but most of them have no chance of being elected and the HoF knows it. Classic non-vite.