Dude, I was a HUGE Edberg fan. Loved how he played. Just f'ing beautiful. And he won 6 Grand Slam singles titles—two Aussie, two Wimbledon and two US Opens. And he even made the finals at the French. What a great great player. One of the best ever.
But that doesn't make him better than those who have twice as many grand slam titles, including at all four Grand Slams, who played longer, had more other other titles, etc..
My favorite player of all time is *not* the GOAT. I would not argue that he is or ever was. Was he one of the top ten players of all time? Maybe I could argue that he was, at one point. But in recent decades, others have bounced him even off the top ten list.
My prized autograph is from Roger Bernadina! He was so excited to have a kid wanting his autograph! I now realize he was probably like “wait—someone wants *my* autograph?!”
BR John's 10 year old daughter's smile says it all. I get goosebumps just looking at that picture and thinking of all of the great moments I've experienced watching youth sports. The smile of a happy child after making a great play is why we love sports.
I've been curious to know Joe's opinion on Chuck Klosterman's recent take on the GOAT concept, basically that it should have to do with establishing a standard/system rather than surpassing it within that system. I'm not sure I'm convinced, but I loved getting a new version of the argument.
True. But he's an all-time minor league legend for the Buffalo Bisons one of the most beloved players in franchise history and one of only three Buffalo Bisons to have their number retired.
AND... he is also one of the most beloved players in the 125-year history of the Rochester Red Wings and one of only three Red Wings to have their number retired!
AND was a legendary figure for the Pacific Coast League version of the San Diego Padres. As Joe Posnanski himself once wrote: "Attendance swelled all over the Pacific Coast League. Sellout crowds followed him to San Diego, to Los Angeles, to Seattle. In Hollywood, they added a special grandstand and box seats for Luke Easter. In San Francisco, 5,000 people were turned away at the gate. In Los Angeles, several fights broke out as people tried to get into the stadium to see Easter play baseball.
In June, the Pacific Coast League was on pace to set an all-time attendance record for one reason: Luscious Luke Easter."
Right. Unlike Charleston or Gibson, he did play significant years in the integrated "organized" leagues. (I hate that term, but it'll work as a short hand for a quickie comment.) But unlike Arlett, etc. he lost all of his 20s simply because of the institutionalized racism of the era.
Anyway, here is one for the tadpole collection: Lefty O'Doul.
How does the a FROG concept intersect with the historical “Whose on your Mt. Rushmore” conversation? I have a Mt. Rushmore of movies, actors, comedians, baseball and football players. Maybe the Rushmore question is the in between: More than the 1 GOAT and less than the number of Lillie pads available for FROGs?
So, baseball FROGs in roughly chronological order?
Harry Wright, Cap Anson, Cy Young, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Ty Cobb, Connie Mack, John McGraw, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Walter Johnson, Cool Papa Bell, Oscar Charleston, Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, Bob Feller, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Jackie Robinson, Yogi Berra, Warren Spahn, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Hoyt Wilhelm, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Pete Rose, Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Johnny Bench, Mike Schmidt, Rickey Henderson, Cal Ripken Jr., Tony Gwynn, Roger Clemens, Ken Griffey, Jr., Mariano Rivera, Greg Maddux, Tony La Russa, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Mike Trout, Albert Pujols, Shohei Ohtani, Aaron Judge.
I'm sure I'm leaving out several players, especially from pre-1900. Still, that list seems really long. Should the number of FROGs be double the number of Mount Rushmore? In that case, my eight FROGs would be: Cobb, Ruth, Paige, Jackie, Aaron, Mays, Clemente and Berra.
A contender for GOAT from the NeL: Pops Lloyd, probably more so than Cool Papa who you do list. And if you are including Harry Wright for his foundational role, perhaps Rube Foster for his not overly disimilar one.
Flagship Representatives omitted: Joe DiMaggio, Brooks Robinson, Rod Carew, Reggie Jackson, and Steve Carlton. Perhaps Ozzie Smith. All way above the median HOFer albeit not candidates for GOAT at their position. But all were exemplars, bigger than life in their time and for quite a while afterwards. Similar, but tweaked argument for Koufax.
Early 20th C? Perhaps Nap LaJoie, Tris Speaker, Eddie Collins or Rogers Hornsby. Later you could add Ott, Hubbell and on up to Yaz, Morgan ... And for the much more current, like Piazza or Chipper or Pedro, I'd let history tell us more in a couple of decades.
I did consider DiMaggio, Piazza, Chipper, Reggie, Speaker, Carlton, Ott, Yaz, Morgan, Koufax, and one of my top five fav players of all time, the Wizard! I totally whiffed on Brooks, Carew, Nap, Hornsby, Hubbell, Pedro, and Rube Foster.
It's really difficult, Joe, dlf, and everyone else, to narrow baseball FROGs to 4 or 10 or even 20. I don't think you can look as stats alone (see Jackie, Satchel, Berra, a few others) - I believe leadership, history/folklore, and trailblazing (so Kim Ng probably is in the FROG club) are also FROG thresholds.
It's so much easier to create other FROG clubs, say guitarists (Page, Hendrix, George Harrison, Jack White, Townshend, Jeff Beck, Edge, Steve Cropper, Pat Metheny, Mike Campbell) than a club that spans 155 years!
I look forward to more from Joe on the subject. Well, not the part about guitarists, but sports figures. Or maybe magicians.
But as long as I'm there ... his book on Houdini makes the point that Harry H wasn't the greatest magician ever or even of his own time. But there was something special, something nearly indefinable about him that created the lasting legacy.
I suspect that when talking about FROGs, rather than arguments for GOATs, we need to put a lot more weight on that something special. Koufax wouldn't be on my Mt. Rushmore of greatest pitchers. But I'd listen really closely to an argument for him as a FROG for that very reason. Cultural impact, lasting legacy, some element that doesn't appear in the cold pixels of Sean Forman's brilliant bbref.
Not really - I also believe in the Hall of the Very Good. Example: Ray Lankford is one of the greatest Cardinals ever, but I'm fine with him in the Cardinal HOF but not the BBHOF. As Joe has written about many times, including a couple of days ago, there's probably 10-20 players who shouldn't be in the BBHOF.
I guess it depends on how you interpret Joe's definition of a FROG. When I read his column, I read it to mean the baseball list would be limited to a very select few like perhaps Honus Wagner, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Barry Bonds, Shohei Ohtani and maybe an Aaron Judge.
Your list was far more expansive.
I guess there's no right or wrong answer. I suppose that would be left to JoePoz himself.
Football? Perhaps Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Jim Brown, Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Lawrence Taylor and Tom Brady.
Golf? Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods and Scottie Scheffler?
I'm looking forward to more from JoeP on the subject. But my gut feel from reading today is that he isn't limiting it to just those who, for a period of time, have an argument as Greatest. It would be more expansive than just Wagner, Ruth, etc. and would include those who are exemplars of something more.
But that could just be my preconceptions from reading a short article together my own priors.
Sounds like a great catch! (And a great picture!!)
Isn’t a FROG just a Hall of Famer?
Dude, I was a HUGE Edberg fan. Loved how he played. Just f'ing beautiful. And he won 6 Grand Slam singles titles—two Aussie, two Wimbledon and two US Opens. And he even made the finals at the French. What a great great player. One of the best ever.
But that doesn't make him better than those who have twice as many grand slam titles, including at all four Grand Slams, who played longer, had more other other titles, etc..
My favorite player of all time is *not* the GOAT. I would not argue that he is or ever was. Was he one of the top ten players of all time? Maybe I could argue that he was, at one point. But in recent decades, others have bounced him even off the top ten list.
Back in 2013 nobody knew what 6-7 was. Actually I still don’t know…..
7-6? Isn’t she part of the 6-7 generation?
My prized autograph is from Roger Bernadina! He was so excited to have a kid wanting his autograph! I now realize he was probably like “wait—someone wants *my* autograph?!”
BR John's 10 year old daughter's smile says it all. I get goosebumps just looking at that picture and thinking of all of the great moments I've experienced watching youth sports. The smile of a happy child after making a great play is why we love sports.
I want a round of really niche FROGs from Joe.
FROG for doing something with bad pitches out of the zone.
FROG for head first slides.
FROG for getting hitters to swing at balls in the dirt.
Yogi, Rose, and Lefty Carlton's slider.
... or Vlad Sr., Rickey, and Mike Scott's split finger .. ahem ... scuff ball.
... or Manny Sanguillen, Gates Brown (^), and Carl Hubbell's screwball.
(^) What a hot dog! https://www.mlb.com/cut4/gates-brown-once-hit-with-two-hot-dogs-hidden-in-his-shirt-c216566016
FROG for getting a base hit on a ball in the dirt.......
I've been curious to know Joe's opinion on Chuck Klosterman's recent take on the GOAT concept, basically that it should have to do with establishing a standard/system rather than surpassing it within that system. I'm not sure I'm convinced, but I loved getting a new version of the argument.
They published a version of it in the nyt:
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/04/opinion/tom-brady-goat-football-greatness.html
That frog is utterly adorable!
Can we designate excellent minor league or college players tadpoles ?
Buzz Arlett, Joe Bauman, Joe Hauser, and Luke Easter.
Easter, because of the NeL issue, may be a different amphibian.
True. But he's an all-time minor league legend for the Buffalo Bisons one of the most beloved players in franchise history and one of only three Buffalo Bisons to have their number retired.
AND... he is also one of the most beloved players in the 125-year history of the Rochester Red Wings and one of only three Red Wings to have their number retired!
AND was a legendary figure for the Pacific Coast League version of the San Diego Padres. As Joe Posnanski himself once wrote: "Attendance swelled all over the Pacific Coast League. Sellout crowds followed him to San Diego, to Los Angeles, to Seattle. In Hollywood, they added a special grandstand and box seats for Luke Easter. In San Francisco, 5,000 people were turned away at the gate. In Los Angeles, several fights broke out as people tried to get into the stadium to see Easter play baseball.
In June, the Pacific Coast League was on pace to set an all-time attendance record for one reason: Luscious Luke Easter."
Right. Unlike Charleston or Gibson, he did play significant years in the integrated "organized" leagues. (I hate that term, but it'll work as a short hand for a quickie comment.) But unlike Arlett, etc. he lost all of his 20s simply because of the institutionalized racism of the era.
Anyway, here is one for the tadpole collection: Lefty O'Doul.
How does the a FROG concept intersect with the historical “Whose on your Mt. Rushmore” conversation? I have a Mt. Rushmore of movies, actors, comedians, baseball and football players. Maybe the Rushmore question is the in between: More than the 1 GOAT and less than the number of Lillie pads available for FROGs?
Otto Graham.
'Nuff said.
So, baseball FROGs in roughly chronological order?
Harry Wright, Cap Anson, Cy Young, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Ty Cobb, Connie Mack, John McGraw, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Walter Johnson, Cool Papa Bell, Oscar Charleston, Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, Bob Feller, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Jackie Robinson, Yogi Berra, Warren Spahn, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Hoyt Wilhelm, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Pete Rose, Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Johnny Bench, Mike Schmidt, Rickey Henderson, Cal Ripken Jr., Tony Gwynn, Roger Clemens, Ken Griffey, Jr., Mariano Rivera, Greg Maddux, Tony La Russa, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Mike Trout, Albert Pujols, Shohei Ohtani, Aaron Judge.
I'm sure I'm leaving out several players, especially from pre-1900. Still, that list seems really long. Should the number of FROGs be double the number of Mount Rushmore? In that case, my eight FROGs would be: Cobb, Ruth, Paige, Jackie, Aaron, Mays, Clemente and Berra.
Love your list!
A contender for GOAT from the NeL: Pops Lloyd, probably more so than Cool Papa who you do list. And if you are including Harry Wright for his foundational role, perhaps Rube Foster for his not overly disimilar one.
Flagship Representatives omitted: Joe DiMaggio, Brooks Robinson, Rod Carew, Reggie Jackson, and Steve Carlton. Perhaps Ozzie Smith. All way above the median HOFer albeit not candidates for GOAT at their position. But all were exemplars, bigger than life in their time and for quite a while afterwards. Similar, but tweaked argument for Koufax.
Early 20th C? Perhaps Nap LaJoie, Tris Speaker, Eddie Collins or Rogers Hornsby. Later you could add Ott, Hubbell and on up to Yaz, Morgan ... And for the much more current, like Piazza or Chipper or Pedro, I'd let history tell us more in a couple of decades.
I know I forgot a lot of dudes! Thanks very much!
I did consider DiMaggio, Piazza, Chipper, Reggie, Speaker, Carlton, Ott, Yaz, Morgan, Koufax, and one of my top five fav players of all time, the Wizard! I totally whiffed on Brooks, Carew, Nap, Hornsby, Hubbell, Pedro, and Rube Foster.
It's really difficult, Joe, dlf, and everyone else, to narrow baseball FROGs to 4 or 10 or even 20. I don't think you can look as stats alone (see Jackie, Satchel, Berra, a few others) - I believe leadership, history/folklore, and trailblazing (so Kim Ng probably is in the FROG club) are also FROG thresholds.
It's so much easier to create other FROG clubs, say guitarists (Page, Hendrix, George Harrison, Jack White, Townshend, Jeff Beck, Edge, Steve Cropper, Pat Metheny, Mike Campbell) than a club that spans 155 years!
How dare you leave of Mark Knopfler!?!?!?! :)
I look forward to more from Joe on the subject. Well, not the part about guitarists, but sports figures. Or maybe magicians.
But as long as I'm there ... his book on Houdini makes the point that Harry H wasn't the greatest magician ever or even of his own time. But there was something special, something nearly indefinable about him that created the lasting legacy.
I suspect that when talking about FROGs, rather than arguments for GOATs, we need to put a lot more weight on that something special. Koufax wouldn't be on my Mt. Rushmore of greatest pitchers. But I'd listen really closely to an argument for him as a FROG for that very reason. Cultural impact, lasting legacy, some element that doesn't appear in the cold pixels of Sean Forman's brilliant bbref.
You're a "Big Hall" guy, aren't you?
Not really - I also believe in the Hall of the Very Good. Example: Ray Lankford is one of the greatest Cardinals ever, but I'm fine with him in the Cardinal HOF but not the BBHOF. As Joe has written about many times, including a couple of days ago, there's probably 10-20 players who shouldn't be in the BBHOF.
I guess it depends on how you interpret Joe's definition of a FROG. When I read his column, I read it to mean the baseball list would be limited to a very select few like perhaps Honus Wagner, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Barry Bonds, Shohei Ohtani and maybe an Aaron Judge.
Your list was far more expansive.
I guess there's no right or wrong answer. I suppose that would be left to JoePoz himself.
Football? Perhaps Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Jim Brown, Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Lawrence Taylor and Tom Brady.
Golf? Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods and Scottie Scheffler?
I'm looking forward to more from JoeP on the subject. But my gut feel from reading today is that he isn't limiting it to just those who, for a period of time, have an argument as Greatest. It would be more expansive than just Wagner, Ruth, etc. and would include those who are exemplars of something more.
But that could just be my preconceptions from reading a short article together my own priors.
Lefty Grove on Line Three. And, as usual, he's blowing a gasket.
Nice job, John’s daughter!
Isn’t “FROG” essentially the same as “Hall-of-Famer”?
Not exactly. It's a much, much smaller table.
And isn't implied (or even directly stated) a FROG is not necessarily a member of the HOF? In many ways the most interesting ones may not be HOFers.
Not as small as "The Willie Mays Hall of Fame", though.......