Thanks, Joe. Just read the Priest Holmes piece as well - had never seen it before. What a wonderful bit of writing and recounting of Holmes' career. 3.5 magical years.
I know all sports fans are assholes, but football fans are really a special breed. Bunch of Al Bundys who think they're warriors and that people who actually play the sport are pussies. Such losers.
"the same Gregg Williams who is now defensive coordinator of the Jets."
There are a lot of reasons I actively avoid supporting the NFL but their utter failure to adequately deal with incidents like this (or Richie Incognito) is at the top of the list. It's bad enough that the NFL is a brutal sport that destroys the lives of the players but the league seems to actively work to empoy the absolute worst people. It's impossible to completely avoid the NFL (it's always on a TV if I go out to eat on a Sunday, Monday or Thursday night during the season) but I refuse to commit any time or money to a league that seems to care so little about the players or the fans.
On helmets, since people love writing about them - They are doing everything they can, but safer helmets don't necessarily make the game safer. The safer a player feels, the harder he hits. The safer a helmet feels, the more likely a guy getting tackled will put his head down, which leads to a helmet to helmet collision when the defender was going for the chest or body. While I applaud people for trying to make helmets safer, this just does not lead to less concussions.
Force = Mass X Acceleration. Concussions and other injuries are more prevalent because players are bigger and faster than ever before. As long as players continue to get bigger and faster, injuries will increase, as will the long term injuries as these collisions take a toll on the body that lasts a lifetime.
Some people turn their back on the game, or don't let their kids play. To each their own, but in youth sports, there are more concussions in soccer than football. The Mass and acceleration are much less. I recognize that players are getting injured, but I think they all have a pretty good heads up about what they are getting into now, and I enjoy the game.
Invitro's idea about a weight limit is interesting. Decrease the mass, decrease the injuries. I don't think they will ever do it though.
Looking at participation rates for younger kids. Football is not going down. Just tackle football is. https://www.aspenprojectplay.org/kids-sports-participation-rates. Flag football is going up in basically the same proportion as tackle football is going down. I can see a day where even high school football has to go to flag as well (will be really interesting what happens in Friday Night Lights country).
Does not seem to be too hard to transition someone from flag to tackle. I could see a day where tackle football starts at college. So only the people who really want to do it and know the risks can do it. Then their choice to move to the pros, etc. They will need to get rid of the stupid rules though and allow kids to go straight to the pros (use some modified baseball/hockey college eligibility rules). Knowing what we know now, there has to be a lawsuit where someone claims that making them play for 3 years in college and suffering injuries led to decreased future earnings and later life traumas. What this does to college football is open question but I think it will still be fine as some kids will see the scholarships and connections as worth it.
The weight limit idea is really an interesting one. May be the only one other than getting rid of the huddle as well (and limiting substitutions or forcing two way players). If players had to be constantly moving and did not have breaks, maybe the weight would actually become a problem and lead to smaller players. All other types of safety solutions such as helmets and pads seems to lead to bigger hits. My daughter plays lacrosse and the discussion is all about whether to allow helmets. The no helmet side is still winning and saying the if they wear helmets, it will lead to players swinging more freely and leading to more injuries (more violent game too as the men's game). Watching women's lacrosse versus men's lacrosse is almost liking watching two different sports. I actually now enjoy women's lacrosse more. I think the same could happen with football. I would much rather watch Barry run or Beckham catch then watch 3 yards and a pile of dust. Seems to be going that way anyways. I agree with Invitro that no way will football be gone in 20 years. But hopefully it will be different (so I can watch again) and less like Rollerball.
The moment I knew I was going to stop being a fan - not the moment I did stop, it took a while, but the moment when I saw where I was headed - was when James Harrison flattened Mohamed Massaquoi of the Browns. Well, it's been easy not to be a Browns fan in recent years, and I haven't really missed football at all. This year my brother-in-law has been texting me about whether I'm excited about the team. It's one of the ways he's found to bond with me, and I want to honor that. But I really don't want to go back, and reading this certainly didn't change my mind. Thanks Joe for the reminder.
The defensive line for Eden Prairie, MN high school team is significantly larger/heavier than was the D-line for the Purple People Eaters Vikings teams. Football players today play through more and harder impacts, beginning at a younger age than ever before.
For the past couple of years I have been predicting that the NFL will last maybe 20 more years. Within that period of time I expect much more information to come out about head trauma caused by playing football, I expect to find out that NFL execs suppressed it, and I expect massive lawsuits that will make the current settlements look very small. I expect more information to come out about the dangers of youth football, and I expect fewer and fewer parents will allow their children to play. More and more school administrators will decide that head trauma, and cheering for head trauma isn't acceptable in a learning environment.
I would guess that much of the ratings drops that the league has seen in very recent seasons is due to a growing appreciation of the pain that the game causes and a discomfort with being entertained by watching that pain, at least as much as any political discomfort with players who take a knee when the national anthem is being sung.
I used to watch a lot of football, and cheered for all the biggest hits. Thank you, Joe.
Any chance you'll one day stop following football given the sheer brutality of the sport? These are human lives being destroyed for our "entertainment" and the owners' fortunes. And college football, where they don't pay the players in exchange for what is often a sham of an education, is in some ways even worse.
I used to love football, but can barely watch it anymore.
to love it too but gave it up years ago after the SI reports on injuries and concussions. The fact that so many owners are misogynist racists is another great reason not to watch. Fine with me if Joe totally gave up writing about football.
Joe has posted several times that he doesn't watch football any more, except the Browns.
There are remedies. There are safer helmets available, but the players refuse to wear them. And the NFL could put a weight limit on players. No one wants to hear those ideas, apparently. (I've posted about them many times.) I don't think the punishment college football players is anywhere near what they receive in the NFL: they play many fewer games, and the players are smaller.
And the players are making fortunes, too.
The problem is not the education given in college, it's the intelligence of the football players. Most of them can barely get through a 4th-grade class, let alone a real college class.
I didn't answer your question :). If they are promising that the players will leave college just as smart and educated as their peers, then yes, they can't deliver on that. If they are only promising that the players will leave college more educated than when they came in, they can probably deliver on that.
I bet all major (maybe minor) colleges have plenty of remedial classes that cover K-12, any level at all. If not, they have tutors whose (maybe impossible) job is to bring the students up to college level. And there are always the African Studies classes like UNC used for their athletes... but you can't do too much of that.
It's very politically incorrect now to say that a person may not be capable of doing college work. It's obviously true, though. But I think it's a giant waste to use big-time research schools' resources to get students up to 6th-grade math & reading level. I guess if the resources come out of the football income, nobody gets hurt too much.
What is your point, invitro? That colleges shouldn't bother trying to educate players because they are too stupid? As for most them barely able to get through a 4th grade class, that's obviously racist and pretty stupid. It certainly isn't true of Luck. There are lawyers and scientists who are ex-football players (interestingly, many of the smartest are offensive linemen).
And the fact that players "make a fortune" doesn't change the fact that they are sacrificing their bodies. Of course, there are people incapable of doing college work. But colleges recruit them anyway (basketball too). If they are incapable of doing the work, maybe they shouldn't be playing football in college.
I still watch football and I think, at this point, the players should know and understand the dangers. They aren't being dragooned into playing. But, you should still understand just what sacrifice they are making. What I think Joe is disturbed about is how many people don't want to hear about it because it might disrupt their enjoyment of the game. Who wants to feel guilty? And the notion that people think they have a "right" to be angry because Andrew Luck isn't "tough enough" to keep sacrificing his body just shows how lacking in moral fiber many fans are. I admire Luck and others for walking away-how much help will those "fortunes" help them if they can't walk or if their brain functions are impaired as they get older, etc? I find it really disheartening this notion that making a lot of money is the only thing that seemingly matters to a lot of fans.
You named one player and talk about a handful of others. That doesn't at all contradict my claim. Obviously I agree that there are intelligent people that play football. So what's your point?
Don't be ignorant. You yourself admit there are people incapable of doing college work. That's actually probably not even true... as I mentioned, all major (and probably minor) colleges now have remedial classes that go all the way down to kindergarten. Taking those classes is college work. It's just not the work the majority of students do.
I understand the sacrifice completely well. Probably better than many players, as many of them are just too dumb to be able to think decades down the road.
No one should feel guilty just for watching football. The players are grown men and are responsible for their decision; the viewers are not.
You were the one that said most football players could barely get through a 4th grade class. As for remedial classes, I don't think they should need remedial classes in college and certainly not for people trying to play sports. The big-time sports programs know damn well a lot of these kids should not be in college but they recruit them anyway. And they give them bogus classes so they can get through and call it an education. If you are serious about college being for education, then don't let in people that can't make it. The University of Chicago dropped big-time football because it wanted to focus on education. And you are the one saying the players are too dumb to realize problems down the road. So that suggests that, if they were smarter, they wouldn't play. But you wouldn't say that about a cop or a soldier risking their life.
Helmets might be somewhat safer, but they will never be able to protect against sudden deceleration injuries, the primary cause of concussions and brain damage. Our brains slosh around in our skulls, floating in a protective fluid. If you are moving quickly and suddenly stop, the brain continues to move forward until it strikes the inside front of the skull. No helmet will ever protect against these injuries, which likely happen to some extent in every football play.
And helmets can't of course protect against the orthopedic injuries, or the dangers of excessive weight -- both of which cause great suffering in aging players.
Thanks, Joe. Just read the Priest Holmes piece as well - had never seen it before. What a wonderful bit of writing and recounting of Holmes' career. 3.5 magical years.
I know all sports fans are assholes, but football fans are really a special breed. Bunch of Al Bundys who think they're warriors and that people who actually play the sport are pussies. Such losers.
"the same Gregg Williams who is now defensive coordinator of the Jets."
There are a lot of reasons I actively avoid supporting the NFL but their utter failure to adequately deal with incidents like this (or Richie Incognito) is at the top of the list. It's bad enough that the NFL is a brutal sport that destroys the lives of the players but the league seems to actively work to empoy the absolute worst people. It's impossible to completely avoid the NFL (it's always on a TV if I go out to eat on a Sunday, Monday or Thursday night during the season) but I refuse to commit any time or money to a league that seems to care so little about the players or the fans.
What could the NFL do to show that they care about the players and fans?
On helmets, since people love writing about them - They are doing everything they can, but safer helmets don't necessarily make the game safer. The safer a player feels, the harder he hits. The safer a helmet feels, the more likely a guy getting tackled will put his head down, which leads to a helmet to helmet collision when the defender was going for the chest or body. While I applaud people for trying to make helmets safer, this just does not lead to less concussions.
Force = Mass X Acceleration. Concussions and other injuries are more prevalent because players are bigger and faster than ever before. As long as players continue to get bigger and faster, injuries will increase, as will the long term injuries as these collisions take a toll on the body that lasts a lifetime.
Some people turn their back on the game, or don't let their kids play. To each their own, but in youth sports, there are more concussions in soccer than football. The Mass and acceleration are much less. I recognize that players are getting injured, but I think they all have a pretty good heads up about what they are getting into now, and I enjoy the game.
Invitro's idea about a weight limit is interesting. Decrease the mass, decrease the injuries. I don't think they will ever do it though.
Looking at participation rates for younger kids. Football is not going down. Just tackle football is. https://www.aspenprojectplay.org/kids-sports-participation-rates. Flag football is going up in basically the same proportion as tackle football is going down. I can see a day where even high school football has to go to flag as well (will be really interesting what happens in Friday Night Lights country).
Does not seem to be too hard to transition someone from flag to tackle. I could see a day where tackle football starts at college. So only the people who really want to do it and know the risks can do it. Then their choice to move to the pros, etc. They will need to get rid of the stupid rules though and allow kids to go straight to the pros (use some modified baseball/hockey college eligibility rules). Knowing what we know now, there has to be a lawsuit where someone claims that making them play for 3 years in college and suffering injuries led to decreased future earnings and later life traumas. What this does to college football is open question but I think it will still be fine as some kids will see the scholarships and connections as worth it.
The weight limit idea is really an interesting one. May be the only one other than getting rid of the huddle as well (and limiting substitutions or forcing two way players). If players had to be constantly moving and did not have breaks, maybe the weight would actually become a problem and lead to smaller players. All other types of safety solutions such as helmets and pads seems to lead to bigger hits. My daughter plays lacrosse and the discussion is all about whether to allow helmets. The no helmet side is still winning and saying the if they wear helmets, it will lead to players swinging more freely and leading to more injuries (more violent game too as the men's game). Watching women's lacrosse versus men's lacrosse is almost liking watching two different sports. I actually now enjoy women's lacrosse more. I think the same could happen with football. I would much rather watch Barry run or Beckham catch then watch 3 yards and a pile of dust. Seems to be going that way anyways. I agree with Invitro that no way will football be gone in 20 years. But hopefully it will be different (so I can watch again) and less like Rollerball.
The moment I knew I was going to stop being a fan - not the moment I did stop, it took a while, but the moment when I saw where I was headed - was when James Harrison flattened Mohamed Massaquoi of the Browns. Well, it's been easy not to be a Browns fan in recent years, and I haven't really missed football at all. This year my brother-in-law has been texting me about whether I'm excited about the team. It's one of the ways he's found to bond with me, and I want to honor that. But I really don't want to go back, and reading this certainly didn't change my mind. Thanks Joe for the reminder.
Kind of similar for me, but was seeing Ryan Shazier's recovery has been rough and had an impact on me and my enjoyment of the game.
The defensive line for Eden Prairie, MN high school team is significantly larger/heavier than was the D-line for the Purple People Eaters Vikings teams. Football players today play through more and harder impacts, beginning at a younger age than ever before.
For the past couple of years I have been predicting that the NFL will last maybe 20 more years. Within that period of time I expect much more information to come out about head trauma caused by playing football, I expect to find out that NFL execs suppressed it, and I expect massive lawsuits that will make the current settlements look very small. I expect more information to come out about the dangers of youth football, and I expect fewer and fewer parents will allow their children to play. More and more school administrators will decide that head trauma, and cheering for head trauma isn't acceptable in a learning environment.
I would guess that much of the ratings drops that the league has seen in very recent seasons is due to a growing appreciation of the pain that the game causes and a discomfort with being entertained by watching that pain, at least as much as any political discomfort with players who take a knee when the national anthem is being sung.
I used to watch a lot of football, and cheered for all the biggest hits. Thank you, Joe.
Then institute a weight limit.
I'll make a bet with you on the lifespan on the NFL.
This is great stuff, thanks for writing it.
Any chance you'll one day stop following football given the sheer brutality of the sport? These are human lives being destroyed for our "entertainment" and the owners' fortunes. And college football, where they don't pay the players in exchange for what is often a sham of an education, is in some ways even worse.
I used to love football, but can barely watch it anymore.
Yeah, I used
to love it too but gave it up years ago after the SI reports on injuries and concussions. The fact that so many owners are misogynist racists is another great reason not to watch. Fine with me if Joe totally gave up writing about football.
Joe has posted several times that he doesn't watch football any more, except the Browns.
There are remedies. There are safer helmets available, but the players refuse to wear them. And the NFL could put a weight limit on players. No one wants to hear those ideas, apparently. (I've posted about them many times.) I don't think the punishment college football players is anywhere near what they receive in the NFL: they play many fewer games, and the players are smaller.
And the players are making fortunes, too.
The problem is not the education given in college, it's the intelligence of the football players. Most of them can barely get through a 4th-grade class, let alone a real college class.
If the players aren't ready for college aren't the colleges promising they will not deliver?
I didn't answer your question :). If they are promising that the players will leave college just as smart and educated as their peers, then yes, they can't deliver on that. If they are only promising that the players will leave college more educated than when they came in, they can probably deliver on that.
I bet all major (maybe minor) colleges have plenty of remedial classes that cover K-12, any level at all. If not, they have tutors whose (maybe impossible) job is to bring the students up to college level. And there are always the African Studies classes like UNC used for their athletes... but you can't do too much of that.
It's very politically incorrect now to say that a person may not be capable of doing college work. It's obviously true, though. But I think it's a giant waste to use big-time research schools' resources to get students up to 6th-grade math & reading level. I guess if the resources come out of the football income, nobody gets hurt too much.
What is your point, invitro? That colleges shouldn't bother trying to educate players because they are too stupid? As for most them barely able to get through a 4th grade class, that's obviously racist and pretty stupid. It certainly isn't true of Luck. There are lawyers and scientists who are ex-football players (interestingly, many of the smartest are offensive linemen).
And the fact that players "make a fortune" doesn't change the fact that they are sacrificing their bodies. Of course, there are people incapable of doing college work. But colleges recruit them anyway (basketball too). If they are incapable of doing the work, maybe they shouldn't be playing football in college.
I still watch football and I think, at this point, the players should know and understand the dangers. They aren't being dragooned into playing. But, you should still understand just what sacrifice they are making. What I think Joe is disturbed about is how many people don't want to hear about it because it might disrupt their enjoyment of the game. Who wants to feel guilty? And the notion that people think they have a "right" to be angry because Andrew Luck isn't "tough enough" to keep sacrificing his body just shows how lacking in moral fiber many fans are. I admire Luck and others for walking away-how much help will those "fortunes" help them if they can't walk or if their brain functions are impaired as they get older, etc? I find it really disheartening this notion that making a lot of money is the only thing that seemingly matters to a lot of fans.
This loser is exactly who I was talking about upthread.
You named one player and talk about a handful of others. That doesn't at all contradict my claim. Obviously I agree that there are intelligent people that play football. So what's your point?
Don't be ignorant. You yourself admit there are people incapable of doing college work. That's actually probably not even true... as I mentioned, all major (and probably minor) colleges now have remedial classes that go all the way down to kindergarten. Taking those classes is college work. It's just not the work the majority of students do.
I understand the sacrifice completely well. Probably better than many players, as many of them are just too dumb to be able to think decades down the road.
No one should feel guilty just for watching football. The players are grown men and are responsible for their decision; the viewers are not.
You were the one that said most football players could barely get through a 4th grade class. As for remedial classes, I don't think they should need remedial classes in college and certainly not for people trying to play sports. The big-time sports programs know damn well a lot of these kids should not be in college but they recruit them anyway. And they give them bogus classes so they can get through and call it an education. If you are serious about college being for education, then don't let in people that can't make it. The University of Chicago dropped big-time football because it wanted to focus on education. And you are the one saying the players are too dumb to realize problems down the road. So that suggests that, if they were smarter, they wouldn't play. But you wouldn't say that about a cop or a soldier risking their life.
Helmets might be somewhat safer, but they will never be able to protect against sudden deceleration injuries, the primary cause of concussions and brain damage. Our brains slosh around in our skulls, floating in a protective fluid. If you are moving quickly and suddenly stop, the brain continues to move forward until it strikes the inside front of the skull. No helmet will ever protect against these injuries, which likely happen to some extent in every football play.
And helmets can't of course protect against the orthopedic injuries, or the dangers of excessive weight -- both of which cause great suffering in aging players.