Putting together an "all time team" like this is both too easy (in that there are far too many players to choose from) and too hard (deciding who actually gets to be on the team).
We need some parameters that limit our choices - while still making it fun and interesting.
How about an All Time Team of Switch-Hitters? An All Time Team of players based entirely on their nicknames? (1B: The Iron Horse. SS: The Wizard....) Things like that.
I haven't read all the comments below, but I am starting to believe that Bullet Rogan is the single most underrated ballplayer of all time. Look at the two-way stats they DO have, and then imagine the one they DON'T and I can't fathom how he isn't routinely in the Satchel Paige-Josh Gibson-Oscar Charleston pantheon of Negro League greats recognized as inner circle all-time greats.
Yes, I've made the I-70 trip a few more times than Joe - say, 300 or 400 more - and it's the worst for one simple reason: billboards. Everywhere, the whole way, big ones, and none of them is remotely funny or interesting. Which is a shame, because the landscape may not be stunning but it has a certain appeal if you can picture it without billboards, which makes it even worse. I do not know this for a fact, but wouldn't be surprised if the Five Man Electrical Band wrote its one-hit wonder after making that drive. And worst of all is the reason there are so many billboards: once upon a time there was a ballot measure to ban new billboards in Missouri, which spurred a surge in billboard construction in advance of the election, plus the "outdoor advertising" industry spent a ton of money to defeat the measure, so here we are...signs, signs, everywhere a sign, blocking out the scenery, breaking my mind
Let me make sure I understand this. You are driving 4 hours from St. Louis to the best barbecue city in the country and you’re going to stop in Columbia for food?
The Major League Baseball All-Century Team ballot was put together by an expert panel appointed by MLB in 1999, and then voted on by fans. The panel was selected by former Chicago Tribune writer Jerome Holtzman, who was baseball's official historian at the time (and who invented the save stat), and the commissioner's office. (https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1999/06/23/fans-to-choose-baseball-s-century-all-stars/)
I can't find any sources revealing who was on the panel, but with respect to those folks, the selection of players on the ballot (and of course the fan voting afterward) make it very clear how far we've come in the last 25+ years in recognizing the Negro Leagues. (Oscar Charleston was on the ballot but finished 30th among outfielders, below Paul Waner. https://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/limc100.shtml) The progress we've made isn't good enough, but it's something.
In 1999, I had only the very limited data from things like Peterson's "Only the Ball was White" or Riley's "Biographical Encyclopedia." But in the years since, we have had an explosion of books and data about the Negro Leagues and its stars.
Gary Ashwill, Kevin Johnson and the good folks at Seamheads who spent thousands of hours in the libraries digging through the old microfilm did an amazing job compiling data for the Charleston era players. Less so but still growing for the Lloyd era from before MLB recognizes the NeLs as "major.".
Yes, and in addition to the books and data you're alluding to, shout out to the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum for having an in-person resource and to MLB The Show for a video game representation that's done a lot as well, especially with younger audiences.
100% agree about the Museum. I'll take your word for the video game as that misses my demographic of grumpy and arguably prematurely old guy complaining about the lack of a good Pong console.
Anecdote: some years ago, I had to be in KC on business. I built in an early arrival time the day before my meeting in order to go see the NLBM. Flew in, got my rental car and went straight to the downtown site. Then stood outside dejected because I had failed to read the website showing that it was closed on Mondays.
This 2-minute video is a good preview of the video game thing, if you're at all curious. It's actually done in partnership with the Museum. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjxX-pDIfh0
I have driven from St. Louis to KC a few times- as part of longer trips both east and west. But that Missouri drive isn’t even in the same universe of boring as from Albuquerque to Roswell NM- especially after you leave I40 and head south. Oh for some billboards to make the trip exciting. Or Mountains. Or anything besides desert grass. More than once I had to pull over to the side of the road to take a 15 minute nap to keep from falling asleep at the wheel.
In September 1998 I was on a baseball road trip to catch some of Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa chasing the HR record and each other. I’d spent Monday in St. Louis and saw my first game there, and Tuesday was a twi-night doubleheader starting at 5 or so. I woke up Tuesday morning and saw there was a game at 1:05 between the Royals and A’s in Kansas City - another ballpark I’d never visited - so I decided to drive there and see if I could catch a few innings, see what I could of the stadium and then head back to St. Louis.
I got to KC after the game had started. Some guy from a local radio station was giving tickets away outside the stadium and not surprisingly for a midweek day game in mid-September between two teams well out of the race, still had some in the fourth inning or whenever I got there, so I gladly took one, went in. Grabbed some food from the concession stand, walked around the stadium to catch the view from some different spots, and after a few innings headed out for the drive back on I-70.
I made it back to Busch Stadium in time to catch the last few innings of the first game and all of the second.
So I can’t say I remember much about that drive on I-70 but I was definitely thankful for the interstate highway system.
What is this all century ballot? I don't think we got an adequate explanation? Who is "they" who put it together? I'm especially confused because you said you were doing the 21st century one. Is the 20th century one not also yours?
Nitpick to your nitpick: The league panel added several players to the team after fans dropped the ball, but it's not specified whether they "voted" on that part. 🙃
Palmer's a weird case because he pitched in front of absurd defenses throughout the entirety of his career and the .64 gap between his actual ERA and FIP is probably a record for anyone who threw a lot of innings. His K, BB and HR rates relative to league averages are all mediocre. Then again, he also threw almost 4000 innings and used what he had behind him more effectively for longer than any of his teammates.
Scrolling through some data...Opponents OPS dropped 37 points with RISP off Palmer and their slugging percentage with the bases loaded was .234 (!!!). So the idea of him bearing down in tough situations wasn't just anecdotal...
I have to assume he was was someone who basically pitched at 80% until he got into trouble, at which point he just dialed it up which is a tendency you don't really see anymore.
Bear down. Not give in. Six. Half dozen. ToeMayToe. ToeMahToe.
Palmer famously said that the cliche "no place to put 'em" was stupid. A walk will plate one run. Giving in and grooving one out of fear of the walk can plate four.
For most of his career, the same was said of Tom Glavine, a reasonably similar pitcher who pitched through the Selig era of heightened offense. But then well after his prime, Glavine allowed two, one each in '03 & '08
As a fan growing up in the 70s, there were two classic pitching styles. We had the drop and drive of Tom Seaver with a delivery that relied on power from his legs. He'd push off so hard that he wore through the knee on his knickers time and again from rubbing it along the mound in the midst of his delivery. Fastballs up in the zone that batters couldn't catch up to. Then there was the tall and fall style from Palmer. He was very upright and threw nearly directly overhand instead of the eleven o'clock release point most pitchers have. More of a sinking fastball and 12-6 curves. Batters couldn't lift the ball and instead would hit grounder after grounder to Belanger, Grich (and Johnson), Robby (and DeCinces). Nearly every other pitcher (Luis Tiant excepted!) approached, but could not fully achieve, these two very different versions of the picture perfect delivery.
"Jason Kander will be moderating tonight’s show in Kansas City, and while I don’t want to spoil anything, I will tell you we have something special and maybe even a little bit touching to share with him tonight."
That sounds lovely but can we get an update on his OPS?
Hmm ... boring four-hour drive. I haven't made the trip from KC to STL, but Atlanta to Charlotte is awfully tedious and for work purposes I made the round trip about 40 times in 2016 during the interstate exchange construction issues in Greenville / Spartanburg. Ugh. Or push it up to a seven-hour drive and ATL to Orlando, a trip I used to make when Kid #2 lived near House of Mouse and I don't think you can get more boring. Flat. More billboards than trees. And yet often lots of traffic.
---
20th C all timers: I possibly (probably?) give too much weight to Cuban performance for the NeL stars, but my "how can Joe have missed him" is Cristobel Torriente.
---
Pet peeve moment. I'm running behind on my Poscasts so just heard the one from 1 week ago discussing the release of the Book. It was preceded by an ad for Kalshi. That was, for me, a first. I would greatly prefer that the hosts chose not to be affiliated with gambling. I'd rather have an ad for heroin.
You will HATE the current drive across Missouri on I-70!!! The road construction is miserable in many, many, many places. Please drive safely and arrive in KC in good health!
Putting together an "all time team" like this is both too easy (in that there are far too many players to choose from) and too hard (deciding who actually gets to be on the team).
We need some parameters that limit our choices - while still making it fun and interesting.
How about an All Time Team of Switch-Hitters? An All Time Team of players based entirely on their nicknames? (1B: The Iron Horse. SS: The Wizard....) Things like that.
My interstate recollections from driving my car to and from Long Island to Dallas several times in college.
I-30 from Dallas to Little Rock is bleak
I-40 from Little Rock to Memphis is also bleak
I-20 from Dallas straight through to Atlanta isn’t much better but at least you’re going through the southern woods.
I-81 is very pretty but man are you in the middle of nowhere in a way this city boy does not like.
I haven't read all the comments below, but I am starting to believe that Bullet Rogan is the single most underrated ballplayer of all time. Look at the two-way stats they DO have, and then imagine the one they DON'T and I can't fathom how he isn't routinely in the Satchel Paige-Josh Gibson-Oscar Charleston pantheon of Negro League greats recognized as inner circle all-time greats.
Yes, I've made the I-70 trip a few more times than Joe - say, 300 or 400 more - and it's the worst for one simple reason: billboards. Everywhere, the whole way, big ones, and none of them is remotely funny or interesting. Which is a shame, because the landscape may not be stunning but it has a certain appeal if you can picture it without billboards, which makes it even worse. I do not know this for a fact, but wouldn't be surprised if the Five Man Electrical Band wrote its one-hit wonder after making that drive. And worst of all is the reason there are so many billboards: once upon a time there was a ballot measure to ban new billboards in Missouri, which spurred a surge in billboard construction in advance of the election, plus the "outdoor advertising" industry spent a ton of money to defeat the measure, so here we are...signs, signs, everywhere a sign, blocking out the scenery, breaking my mind
Let me make sure I understand this. You are driving 4 hours from St. Louis to the best barbecue city in the country and you’re going to stop in Columbia for food?
The Major League Baseball All-Century Team ballot was put together by an expert panel appointed by MLB in 1999, and then voted on by fans. The panel was selected by former Chicago Tribune writer Jerome Holtzman, who was baseball's official historian at the time (and who invented the save stat), and the commissioner's office. (https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1999/06/23/fans-to-choose-baseball-s-century-all-stars/)
I can't find any sources revealing who was on the panel, but with respect to those folks, the selection of players on the ballot (and of course the fan voting afterward) make it very clear how far we've come in the last 25+ years in recognizing the Negro Leagues. (Oscar Charleston was on the ballot but finished 30th among outfielders, below Paul Waner. https://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/limc100.shtml) The progress we've made isn't good enough, but it's something.
In 1999, I had only the very limited data from things like Peterson's "Only the Ball was White" or Riley's "Biographical Encyclopedia." But in the years since, we have had an explosion of books and data about the Negro Leagues and its stars.
Gary Ashwill, Kevin Johnson and the good folks at Seamheads who spent thousands of hours in the libraries digging through the old microfilm did an amazing job compiling data for the Charleston era players. Less so but still growing for the Lloyd era from before MLB recognizes the NeLs as "major.".
https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/
Yes, and in addition to the books and data you're alluding to, shout out to the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum for having an in-person resource and to MLB The Show for a video game representation that's done a lot as well, especially with younger audiences.
100% agree about the Museum. I'll take your word for the video game as that misses my demographic of grumpy and arguably prematurely old guy complaining about the lack of a good Pong console.
Anecdote: some years ago, I had to be in KC on business. I built in an early arrival time the day before my meeting in order to go see the NLBM. Flew in, got my rental car and went straight to the downtown site. Then stood outside dejected because I had failed to read the website showing that it was closed on Mondays.
This 2-minute video is a good preview of the video game thing, if you're at all curious. It's actually done in partnership with the Museum. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjxX-pDIfh0
I have driven from St. Louis to KC a few times- as part of longer trips both east and west. But that Missouri drive isn’t even in the same universe of boring as from Albuquerque to Roswell NM- especially after you leave I40 and head south. Oh for some billboards to make the trip exciting. Or Mountains. Or anything besides desert grass. More than once I had to pull over to the side of the road to take a 15 minute nap to keep from falling asleep at the wheel.
In September 1998 I was on a baseball road trip to catch some of Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa chasing the HR record and each other. I’d spent Monday in St. Louis and saw my first game there, and Tuesday was a twi-night doubleheader starting at 5 or so. I woke up Tuesday morning and saw there was a game at 1:05 between the Royals and A’s in Kansas City - another ballpark I’d never visited - so I decided to drive there and see if I could catch a few innings, see what I could of the stadium and then head back to St. Louis.
I got to KC after the game had started. Some guy from a local radio station was giving tickets away outside the stadium and not surprisingly for a midweek day game in mid-September between two teams well out of the race, still had some in the fourth inning or whenever I got there, so I gladly took one, went in. Grabbed some food from the concession stand, walked around the stadium to catch the view from some different spots, and after a few innings headed out for the drive back on I-70.
I made it back to Busch Stadium in time to catch the last few innings of the first game and all of the second.
So I can’t say I remember much about that drive on I-70 but I was definitely thankful for the interstate highway system.
When I hit 49 of the 50 states my remaining one was Arkansas. Just not on the way to anywhere
Lunch at Governor Stumpy’s in KC tomorrow?
What is this all century ballot? I don't think we got an adequate explanation? Who is "they" who put it together? I'm especially confused because you said you were doing the 21st century one. Is the 20th century one not also yours?
The ballot was put together by an expert panel appointed by MLB in 1999, and then voted on by fans.
Nitpick: voted on by fans and the league too. Stan Musial, IIRC, was one of the fans big omissions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_All-Century_Team
Nitpick to your nitpick: The league panel added several players to the team after fans dropped the ball, but it's not specified whether they "voted" on that part. 🙃
:D
I always thought Richmond to Charlottesville is the most boring - extended tunnel between trees - but at least that's a lot shorter.
Palmer's a weird case because he pitched in front of absurd defenses throughout the entirety of his career and the .64 gap between his actual ERA and FIP is probably a record for anyone who threw a lot of innings. His K, BB and HR rates relative to league averages are all mediocre. Then again, he also threw almost 4000 innings and used what he had behind him more effectively for longer than any of his teammates.
On the other hand, no one ever hit a grand slam off Palmer.
No one.
Scrolling through some data...Opponents OPS dropped 37 points with RISP off Palmer and their slugging percentage with the bases loaded was .234 (!!!). So the idea of him bearing down in tough situations wasn't just anecdotal...
I have to assume he was was someone who basically pitched at 80% until he got into trouble, at which point he just dialed it up which is a tendency you don't really see anymore.
Bear down. Not give in. Six. Half dozen. ToeMayToe. ToeMahToe.
Palmer famously said that the cliche "no place to put 'em" was stupid. A walk will plate one run. Giving in and grooving one out of fear of the walk can plate four.
For most of his career, the same was said of Tom Glavine, a reasonably similar pitcher who pitched through the Selig era of heightened offense. But then well after his prime, Glavine allowed two, one each in '03 & '08
As a fan growing up in the 70s, there were two classic pitching styles. We had the drop and drive of Tom Seaver with a delivery that relied on power from his legs. He'd push off so hard that he wore through the knee on his knickers time and again from rubbing it along the mound in the midst of his delivery. Fastballs up in the zone that batters couldn't catch up to. Then there was the tall and fall style from Palmer. He was very upright and threw nearly directly overhand instead of the eleven o'clock release point most pitchers have. More of a sinking fastball and 12-6 curves. Batters couldn't lift the ball and instead would hit grounder after grounder to Belanger, Grich (and Johnson), Robby (and DeCinces). Nearly every other pitcher (Luis Tiant excepted!) approached, but could not fully achieve, these two very different versions of the picture perfect delivery.
Seaver feels like someone who would translate very easily to today's game especially if he was expected to go 6 instead of 8-9 and could just sit 98.
"Jason Kander will be moderating tonight’s show in Kansas City, and while I don’t want to spoil anything, I will tell you we have something special and maybe even a little bit touching to share with him tonight."
That sounds lovely but can we get an update on his OPS?
I'm hoping it's a custom-made baseball card with all of his stats
They went to the Pewter store at a mall in St. Louis and they’re giving him a Silver Slugger award.
Hmm ... boring four-hour drive. I haven't made the trip from KC to STL, but Atlanta to Charlotte is awfully tedious and for work purposes I made the round trip about 40 times in 2016 during the interstate exchange construction issues in Greenville / Spartanburg. Ugh. Or push it up to a seven-hour drive and ATL to Orlando, a trip I used to make when Kid #2 lived near House of Mouse and I don't think you can get more boring. Flat. More billboards than trees. And yet often lots of traffic.
---
20th C all timers: I possibly (probably?) give too much weight to Cuban performance for the NeL stars, but my "how can Joe have missed him" is Cristobel Torriente.
---
Pet peeve moment. I'm running behind on my Poscasts so just heard the one from 1 week ago discussing the release of the Book. It was preceded by an ad for Kalshi. That was, for me, a first. I would greatly prefer that the hosts chose not to be affiliated with gambling. I'd rather have an ad for heroin.
You will HATE the current drive across Missouri on I-70!!! The road construction is miserable in many, many, many places. Please drive safely and arrive in KC in good health!