You think the Browns have mistreated you!?! Look what the Lions have done to me!
-Forced two of the all-time greats to retire early (Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson) because they were incapable of building a team around them!
-Had a Super Bowl winning caliber QB for 12 years (Matthew Stafford) and couldn’t build a team around him!
-Extended(!) the contract of arguably the worst GM in NFL history (Matt Millen), who ended up with an 8 year winning percentage of .270 (and remember, the Lions were the FIRST team to go 0-16)!
-The winningest coach in team history (Wayne Fonts) is also the LOSINGEST coach in team history.
- When I was 2 years old (1957), the Lions won an NFL Championship. Since then, they’ve won ONE PLAYOFF GAME! Even the Browns have won an NFL Championship since then!
- The Lions have had 20 head coaches since that Championship.
Joe, just shift your focus across Lake Erie and root for the Lions. You’ll feel right at home!
As you search for a team, any thought of the Texans? You can follow the Browns draft picks for years that way, and root for the team who had no desire to pay Watson.
So, just as Joe has a breaking point for leaving the Browns, I have a breaking point for leaving him. I’m ending my subscription. Why? First is that he said that one of his great pet peeves in sports is passing back to the goalie in soccer. That shows zero knowledge of the sport—from a sports writer. And now his holier-than-thou diatribe on Watson, all under the apparent guise of protecting women. Please. It’s the most misogynistic of acts, this pandering to women, with the implication that they need a Joe and his chivalry to save the day. No, it’s lazy thinking, it’s cowardly, it’s fashionable, it’s safe. Behind it is a lust for money, the maintenance of this by-subscription newsletter by striking g a safe position. The truth is that this issue requires a wading into the murky morass of complex thought, of real analysis. But Joe just kicks the thought back to the goalie and puffs up his ego. So, I’m out, it’s been fascinating.
I've been a suffering, whiplash's Niners fan since the 1994 season when I was 9, and they won the Super Bowl, cementing my fandom for life. A whooole lot of ups and downs and thrills and spills since, but I love the direction we've gone, and they have arguably the best locker room and group of guys, in a league full of - and that clearly couldn't be concerned with - abusers and unrelenting, unattoned for toxicity. I'd be absolutely thrilled to read your takes on the Niners every week, as well as following along with Barrows, Lombardi, and the rest of the stellar Athletic Bay crew.
Joe, we'd love to have you back in Cincy. You were here during the absolute worst time in Bengals' history. That should give you an excellent foil for writing about what should be among the best of times. How could you not be excited to watch this team each week?
I was an NFL free agent a few years ago. I grew up a Rams fan in Orange County, tried to follow them to St. Louis but really ended up rooting a bit for a bunch of different teams I kind of liked, then tried to rekindle the old flame when the Rams came back to town. It didn't work. So when the Chargers drafted Justin Herbert a couple years ago (my wife and I are Oregon alumni), we talked to our kids about it and we decided to become Chargers fans. I invite you to become one with us.
There are plenty of benefits, some suited for uniquely for you, a former Browns fan. You will fit right in with fatalistic Chargers fans who just know that, no matter how well they're playing, SOMETHING is going to go wrong. No matter how good of a team they have, the fates will conspire to have them miss the postseason by one game, or lose a playoff game by a field goal. You know how that goes. But in spite of all that, they have the foundations of what could be a really good team, including an amazing young quarterback, and they seem to be going hard after building a winner. Jump on board with us!
Joe, Joe, Joe... It has to be Kansas City, right? Think of all the years you covered the Chiefs, all the games of chess you played... Not only do we have one of the best coaches to cover in all of sports in Andy Reid, we have players (and a system) that would be FUN to write about... In addition, think of all the great pieces you can write on former Chiefs--how about a weekly "Where are they now?" column? Priest... Eric Berry... Willie Roaf... Steve DeBerg... Christian Okoye... The list literally goes on and on... Other bonuses? You would be aligned with Bob Kendrick's football team, the people at Rainy Day Books would love having you back and you already have a spot devoted to KC on the Poscast--at least, once Jason Kander comes off of suspension!!
"Hill spent the night in jail and on the next day was charged with felony domestic assault and battery by strangulation. That day, Oklahoma State announced it had dismissed Hill from the football and track programs. "Oklahoma State University does not tolerate domestic abuse or violence," the school said in a statement."
Joe, you drop the Browns, I’m dropping you. Sorry, but it’s true.
Your insights are sublime, your writing is Jimmy Breslin, Dave Barry, Sherwood Anderson all rolled into one.
But this is the biggest story, in the biggest sports league (sorry Premier League) in the world. It’s your team, you owe it to us (your loyal readers), to all football fans… especially Browns fans, to yourself, and to all women, fans or not, to stay on top of this drama and tell us the truth about it.
We all know, all we’re rooting for is laundry… but not being billionaires, it’s all we have.
13 teams went after Watson. Are they all off the table as well? Does anyone really think the ones that didn’t were honoring a higher moral code?
Is there a moral code in the NFL? A ‘game’ where any play can be a participant’s last, and yet most of the participant’s contracts are only honored if they can drag their carcasses out there for one more play.
If nothing else, this contract begins to break up that devil’s bargain.
I don't really blame you. I mean, for most people, even if they're technically still fans of a team that often wins 25% of their games, or less, how many are really still paying attention. As far as Baker Mayfield, I tend to give players the benefit of the doubt when they're battling injuries. I give Baker a lot of credit for playing with a really messed up shoulder. Had he not played, who was the backup quarterback that would have given the Browns no shot the rest of the way? I think he deserves another season. But I guess he'll get that with another team. BTW: I'm not super optimistic for Baker with what I've seen, but I can't really judge him playing more than just a little hurt. You could make the argument that he's a bad leader, of course. But would he be considered a bad leader had they made the playoffs last year?
This is a great time to be a Chiefs fan. Mahomes and that offense are fun to watch (AFC Championship Game 2nd half notwithstanding) and generally Chiefs seasons ultimately end in heartbreak (see the 2nd half of the AFC Championship Game) so you should feel right at home.
I was just telling a friend about the site and how if the weekly football team covered was the Bengals it would be perfect. Seems like a good time to get on the Bengals bandwagon, and your resume looks good for becoming a fan of the Bengals.
Three days after the fact, my reaction has moderated to a three words: Disgusted. Distressed. Doubtful.
My disgust is over the fact that the Browns did not merely sign a player who is subject to multiple, and credible, though net yet proven, allegations of serial abuse of women, they have made him, without condition, the FACE of the FRANCHISE, for the foreseeable future of the team. By doing so now, without waiting for the resolution of the complaints, the Browns have either shown that they don't take the allegations of these women seriously enough to wait for their resolution, or they take the allegations seriously, but believe that even if the allegations are true, sexual harassment and assault against women is that big a deal and inconsistent with the values of the community and team. This apparent disregard for the seriousness of the charges are underscored by the fact that the Browns collaborated with Watson's agent to structure the payout in the first year to minimize the amount of the penalty he will have to pay if fined by the League. Think about that for a moment: The Browns conspired to preemptively help evade disciplinary action by the League. (Good thing for the Browns the NFL does not have a Commissioner) In any event, the message the Browns are sending to the community, the league and other players is that abuse of women is something the Browns are willing to tolerate, if the player is good enough. Disgusting.
I am distressed because the deal the Browns agreed to has every potential to be a disaster which cripples this team for years. They guaranteed 230 million dollars to a player who, right off the bat, is at significant risk for being suspended for a considerable period of time and who, like any other quarterback in the league, is subject to great risk of injury throughout his career. But the real risk to the Browns is not the money that may be lost if Watson is unable to play for a substantial period of time during his contract, or if he just bombs out during the last few years. Rather the real risk is how this team will be crippled if, for whatever reason, Watson cannot or does not play up to expectations. Salary cap hits and opportunity costs (particularly of trading three first round draft picks) are going to have an effect on all major Brown's personnel decisions from here on out. The Brown's future not is tied to Watson. If he takes them to the Superbowl several times, they will appear to have been prescient. (Still disgusting though.) But if Watson misses time, or is merely a slightly above average quarterback, the Browns will be adjudged for having entered into the most insane trade arrangement since the Red Sox traded Babe Ruth. (Actually, the Brown's trade is probably worse. Cleveland fans won't even get a bad Broadway musical.)
Finally, doubtful. How can women, and men who were either married to a woman or born of a woman, buy into this team, at least for now? What can Brown's management say when they are asked, as they will be again and again, "How could you make this man the face of your franchise, before these charges were resolve--before the women who filed the complaint were allowed to even present their evidence?" Are the Browns going to say "We know the women haven't even been deposed under oath, but we don't believe them?" Or, are they going to say : "We don't believe the charges are serious?" Or, are they going to say "We know the allegations are bad and show, at best, a wanton disrespect and degradation of women, but this is football, and we're willing to accept that behavior? " I doubt there is anything the Browns can say which won't make the situation worse. And precisely for that reason, I expect the Browns will go ahead and try to explain why choosing Watson as the face of the franchise was the right thing to do. "
Cleveland deserves a football team which the entire City, including women, can be proud of. Unfortunately the Browns have probably made it impossible for this franchise to be that team.
Doesn't the fact that he was acquitted by a grand jury say something? Or the fact that this move took place after the acquittal? If he's not guilty of criminal charges, and the broad definitions of behavior contained in these charges, what's left? And how high a standard do you want there to be?
You have a misunderstanding of grand juries. They do not acquit or convict anyone. They are called upon to determine whether there is enough evidence to constitute probable cause for a trial. Does not mean a person is innocent or guilty. Just that there is not enough evidence available to charge someone.
Ok, but I'm not sure how that changes anything. Isn't the line that "a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich"? So if they didn't indict here, doesn't that say something? (Apparantly it did to the 4-5 teams that were pursuing him)
I think some football teams would hire an assassin if they thought he would help them. As long as they could keep it a secret. And I’m not being facetious when I say that.
Your comment about indicting a ham sandwich. Never heard that one. Many prosecutors are gun shy about indicting unless they have a slam dunk case- so they can show a good conviction record. My understanding is that many people aren’t indicted for that very reason. Lots of guilty people roam our streets.
The point is that a prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich, but that doesn't mean that the prosecutor wants to waste judicial resources if the likelihood of a conviction in front of a petit jury (yes, that's the technical term for the twelve person jury of your peers) under the beyond a reasonable doubt standard is not high enough to justify the indictment. As happened in the OJ Simpson case, a person can readily be found liable under the civil standard of "preponderance of the evidence" but not be found guilty in a criminal trial. That the prosecutors chose not to indict doesn't mean he didn't do it. Or all 22 of it.
Well the Browns already gave an indication of their stances on players who don’t respect women when they signed Kareem Hunt. I mean even Andy Reid, who has shown a lot of flexibility in terms of playing players with questionable histories, booted him out the door.
I must admit I’ve been a little disappointed- and surprised- that Joe was so quiet and accepting, on that signing. Looks like this was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
From what I saw of Kareem Hunt, he wasn't engaged in any egregiously bad behavior against women. (More like he was pushing someone off him who was attacking him) He got cut by the chiefs because he lied about it to them
Normally, if 22 people have the same story, it's pretty strong evidence that something happened. But I think things have changed. These players are giving large payoffs to the women to drop their complaints. Roberto Osuna (who WAS guilty) paid a pretty penny to get his accusor to drop charges. Kobe did the same. Antonio Brown...So it's quite possible this is just a feeding frenzy of women looking for payouts. To be clear, I have no idea what happened. Maybe Watson is guilty as hell. But we've seen Trevor Bauer have to sit out before charges were dropped, and there doesn't seen to be any substance to the accusations against him. And he's not the only one. The balance has shifted. 10 years ago it would be hard to believe a person facing so many accusations would be innocent. Now not so much.
You think the Browns have mistreated you!?! Look what the Lions have done to me!
-Forced two of the all-time greats to retire early (Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson) because they were incapable of building a team around them!
-Had a Super Bowl winning caliber QB for 12 years (Matthew Stafford) and couldn’t build a team around him!
-Extended(!) the contract of arguably the worst GM in NFL history (Matt Millen), who ended up with an 8 year winning percentage of .270 (and remember, the Lions were the FIRST team to go 0-16)!
-The winningest coach in team history (Wayne Fonts) is also the LOSINGEST coach in team history.
- When I was 2 years old (1957), the Lions won an NFL Championship. Since then, they’ve won ONE PLAYOFF GAME! Even the Browns have won an NFL Championship since then!
- The Lions have had 20 head coaches since that Championship.
Joe, just shift your focus across Lake Erie and root for the Lions. You’ll feel right at home!
As you search for a team, any thought of the Texans? You can follow the Browns draft picks for years that way, and root for the team who had no desire to pay Watson.
So, just as Joe has a breaking point for leaving the Browns, I have a breaking point for leaving him. I’m ending my subscription. Why? First is that he said that one of his great pet peeves in sports is passing back to the goalie in soccer. That shows zero knowledge of the sport—from a sports writer. And now his holier-than-thou diatribe on Watson, all under the apparent guise of protecting women. Please. It’s the most misogynistic of acts, this pandering to women, with the implication that they need a Joe and his chivalry to save the day. No, it’s lazy thinking, it’s cowardly, it’s fashionable, it’s safe. Behind it is a lust for money, the maintenance of this by-subscription newsletter by striking g a safe position. The truth is that this issue requires a wading into the murky morass of complex thought, of real analysis. But Joe just kicks the thought back to the goalie and puffs up his ego. So, I’m out, it’s been fascinating.
Jets diary!
I've been a suffering, whiplash's Niners fan since the 1994 season when I was 9, and they won the Super Bowl, cementing my fandom for life. A whooole lot of ups and downs and thrills and spills since, but I love the direction we've gone, and they have arguably the best locker room and group of guys, in a league full of - and that clearly couldn't be concerned with - abusers and unrelenting, unattoned for toxicity. I'd be absolutely thrilled to read your takes on the Niners every week, as well as following along with Barrows, Lombardi, and the rest of the stellar Athletic Bay crew.
Im out reading Joe. Anybody have another writer they could suggest? This is the worse than the the gift to the Athletic I got.
Joe, we'd love to have you back in Cincy. You were here during the absolute worst time in Bengals' history. That should give you an excellent foil for writing about what should be among the best of times. How could you not be excited to watch this team each week?
I was an NFL free agent a few years ago. I grew up a Rams fan in Orange County, tried to follow them to St. Louis but really ended up rooting a bit for a bunch of different teams I kind of liked, then tried to rekindle the old flame when the Rams came back to town. It didn't work. So when the Chargers drafted Justin Herbert a couple years ago (my wife and I are Oregon alumni), we talked to our kids about it and we decided to become Chargers fans. I invite you to become one with us.
There are plenty of benefits, some suited for uniquely for you, a former Browns fan. You will fit right in with fatalistic Chargers fans who just know that, no matter how well they're playing, SOMETHING is going to go wrong. No matter how good of a team they have, the fates will conspire to have them miss the postseason by one game, or lose a playoff game by a field goal. You know how that goes. But in spite of all that, they have the foundations of what could be a really good team, including an amazing young quarterback, and they seem to be going hard after building a winner. Jump on board with us!
Joe, Joe, Joe... It has to be Kansas City, right? Think of all the years you covered the Chiefs, all the games of chess you played... Not only do we have one of the best coaches to cover in all of sports in Andy Reid, we have players (and a system) that would be FUN to write about... In addition, think of all the great pieces you can write on former Chiefs--how about a weekly "Where are they now?" column? Priest... Eric Berry... Willie Roaf... Steve DeBerg... Christian Okoye... The list literally goes on and on... Other bonuses? You would be aligned with Bob Kendrick's football team, the people at Rainy Day Books would love having you back and you already have a spot devoted to KC on the Poscast--at least, once Jason Kander comes off of suspension!!
"Hill spent the night in jail and on the next day was charged with felony domestic assault and battery by strangulation. That day, Oklahoma State announced it had dismissed Hill from the football and track programs. "Oklahoma State University does not tolerate domestic abuse or violence," the school said in a statement."
Joe, you drop the Browns, I’m dropping you. Sorry, but it’s true.
Your insights are sublime, your writing is Jimmy Breslin, Dave Barry, Sherwood Anderson all rolled into one.
But this is the biggest story, in the biggest sports league (sorry Premier League) in the world. It’s your team, you owe it to us (your loyal readers), to all football fans… especially Browns fans, to yourself, and to all women, fans or not, to stay on top of this drama and tell us the truth about it.
We all know, all we’re rooting for is laundry… but not being billionaires, it’s all we have.
Please, don’t desert us.
I'm a loyal reader as well and will applaud Joe if he sticks too this. I would much rather read a diary about any other team.
13 teams went after Watson. Are they all off the table as well? Does anyone really think the ones that didn’t were honoring a higher moral code?
Is there a moral code in the NFL? A ‘game’ where any play can be a participant’s last, and yet most of the participant’s contracts are only honored if they can drag their carcasses out there for one more play.
If nothing else, this contract begins to break up that devil’s bargain.
I don't really blame you. I mean, for most people, even if they're technically still fans of a team that often wins 25% of their games, or less, how many are really still paying attention. As far as Baker Mayfield, I tend to give players the benefit of the doubt when they're battling injuries. I give Baker a lot of credit for playing with a really messed up shoulder. Had he not played, who was the backup quarterback that would have given the Browns no shot the rest of the way? I think he deserves another season. But I guess he'll get that with another team. BTW: I'm not super optimistic for Baker with what I've seen, but I can't really judge him playing more than just a little hurt. You could make the argument that he's a bad leader, of course. But would he be considered a bad leader had they made the playoffs last year?
This is a great time to be a Chiefs fan. Mahomes and that offense are fun to watch (AFC Championship Game 2nd half notwithstanding) and generally Chiefs seasons ultimately end in heartbreak (see the 2nd half of the AFC Championship Game) so you should feel right at home.
I was just telling a friend about the site and how if the weekly football team covered was the Bengals it would be perfect. Seems like a good time to get on the Bengals bandwagon, and your resume looks good for becoming a fan of the Bengals.
Three days after the fact, my reaction has moderated to a three words: Disgusted. Distressed. Doubtful.
My disgust is over the fact that the Browns did not merely sign a player who is subject to multiple, and credible, though net yet proven, allegations of serial abuse of women, they have made him, without condition, the FACE of the FRANCHISE, for the foreseeable future of the team. By doing so now, without waiting for the resolution of the complaints, the Browns have either shown that they don't take the allegations of these women seriously enough to wait for their resolution, or they take the allegations seriously, but believe that even if the allegations are true, sexual harassment and assault against women is that big a deal and inconsistent with the values of the community and team. This apparent disregard for the seriousness of the charges are underscored by the fact that the Browns collaborated with Watson's agent to structure the payout in the first year to minimize the amount of the penalty he will have to pay if fined by the League. Think about that for a moment: The Browns conspired to preemptively help evade disciplinary action by the League. (Good thing for the Browns the NFL does not have a Commissioner) In any event, the message the Browns are sending to the community, the league and other players is that abuse of women is something the Browns are willing to tolerate, if the player is good enough. Disgusting.
I am distressed because the deal the Browns agreed to has every potential to be a disaster which cripples this team for years. They guaranteed 230 million dollars to a player who, right off the bat, is at significant risk for being suspended for a considerable period of time and who, like any other quarterback in the league, is subject to great risk of injury throughout his career. But the real risk to the Browns is not the money that may be lost if Watson is unable to play for a substantial period of time during his contract, or if he just bombs out during the last few years. Rather the real risk is how this team will be crippled if, for whatever reason, Watson cannot or does not play up to expectations. Salary cap hits and opportunity costs (particularly of trading three first round draft picks) are going to have an effect on all major Brown's personnel decisions from here on out. The Brown's future not is tied to Watson. If he takes them to the Superbowl several times, they will appear to have been prescient. (Still disgusting though.) But if Watson misses time, or is merely a slightly above average quarterback, the Browns will be adjudged for having entered into the most insane trade arrangement since the Red Sox traded Babe Ruth. (Actually, the Brown's trade is probably worse. Cleveland fans won't even get a bad Broadway musical.)
Finally, doubtful. How can women, and men who were either married to a woman or born of a woman, buy into this team, at least for now? What can Brown's management say when they are asked, as they will be again and again, "How could you make this man the face of your franchise, before these charges were resolve--before the women who filed the complaint were allowed to even present their evidence?" Are the Browns going to say "We know the women haven't even been deposed under oath, but we don't believe them?" Or, are they going to say : "We don't believe the charges are serious?" Or, are they going to say "We know the allegations are bad and show, at best, a wanton disrespect and degradation of women, but this is football, and we're willing to accept that behavior? " I doubt there is anything the Browns can say which won't make the situation worse. And precisely for that reason, I expect the Browns will go ahead and try to explain why choosing Watson as the face of the franchise was the right thing to do. "
Cleveland deserves a football team which the entire City, including women, can be proud of. Unfortunately the Browns have probably made it impossible for this franchise to be that team.
Doesn't the fact that he was acquitted by a grand jury say something? Or the fact that this move took place after the acquittal? If he's not guilty of criminal charges, and the broad definitions of behavior contained in these charges, what's left? And how high a standard do you want there to be?
You have a misunderstanding of grand juries. They do not acquit or convict anyone. They are called upon to determine whether there is enough evidence to constitute probable cause for a trial. Does not mean a person is innocent or guilty. Just that there is not enough evidence available to charge someone.
Ok, but I'm not sure how that changes anything. Isn't the line that "a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich"? So if they didn't indict here, doesn't that say something? (Apparantly it did to the 4-5 teams that were pursuing him)
I think some football teams would hire an assassin if they thought he would help them. As long as they could keep it a secret. And I’m not being facetious when I say that.
Your comment about indicting a ham sandwich. Never heard that one. Many prosecutors are gun shy about indicting unless they have a slam dunk case- so they can show a good conviction record. My understanding is that many people aren’t indicted for that very reason. Lots of guilty people roam our streets.
I'm in agreement with most of what you're saying here. Here's a source I found re grand juries. https://qz.com/303017/the-bizarre-tale-of-the-indict-a-ham-sandwich-judge-who-became-a-felon/
The point is that a prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich, but that doesn't mean that the prosecutor wants to waste judicial resources if the likelihood of a conviction in front of a petit jury (yes, that's the technical term for the twelve person jury of your peers) under the beyond a reasonable doubt standard is not high enough to justify the indictment. As happened in the OJ Simpson case, a person can readily be found liable under the civil standard of "preponderance of the evidence" but not be found guilty in a criminal trial. That the prosecutors chose not to indict doesn't mean he didn't do it. Or all 22 of it.
Well the Browns already gave an indication of their stances on players who don’t respect women when they signed Kareem Hunt. I mean even Andy Reid, who has shown a lot of flexibility in terms of playing players with questionable histories, booted him out the door.
I must admit I’ve been a little disappointed- and surprised- that Joe was so quiet and accepting, on that signing. Looks like this was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
From what I saw of Kareem Hunt, he wasn't engaged in any egregiously bad behavior against women. (More like he was pushing someone off him who was attacking him) He got cut by the chiefs because he lied about it to them
Joe, there can be only one team for you: the Minnesota Vikings.
Normally, if 22 people have the same story, it's pretty strong evidence that something happened. But I think things have changed. These players are giving large payoffs to the women to drop their complaints. Roberto Osuna (who WAS guilty) paid a pretty penny to get his accusor to drop charges. Kobe did the same. Antonio Brown...So it's quite possible this is just a feeding frenzy of women looking for payouts. To be clear, I have no idea what happened. Maybe Watson is guilty as hell. But we've seen Trevor Bauer have to sit out before charges were dropped, and there doesn't seen to be any substance to the accusations against him. And he's not the only one. The balance has shifted. 10 years ago it would be hard to believe a person facing so many accusations would be innocent. Now not so much.