Bill James on Wednesday pointed to an interesting list that sabermetrics pioneer Cyril Morong put together a few years ago — it’s of the most underrated players in baseball history.
Ok as I understand the premise of this article, Joe is comparing WAR with MVP “support” as measured in votes? Wouldn’t Ted Williams be on that list? I am not saying he was underrated, same logic as Willie Mays. He won 2 MVPs. But should have won probably several more. Led the league in ops like 10 times. Won triple crown twice lost MVP both years. I can go on. Is the issue that he finished second some years so that’s close to winning? I think finishing second when you should have won is way worse and should count more than finishing 10th when you should have finished 4th or something. I wonder who should have won more MVPs, Teddy or Mays?
I would think Hall of Famers, let alone first ballot Hall of Famers should not be part of the discussion. Was Willie Mays more underrated than Indian Bob Johnson? Maybe, although being a household word and being known by many as the greatest player who ever lived would seem to indicate that he is not underrated despite having deserved more hardware when he played.
The reasoning is the player was not recognized for how exceptional they were. Rickey Henderson is an example. But Ricky tells you he was the greatest so we can only laugh. But he had the highest WAR, by far, in the 1980s. And Wade Boggs, another underated player, was second.
>>>> But he had the highest WAR, by far, in the 1980s.
Probably why he made 8 all-star games, had 5 top 10 finishes in the MVP voting in the 1980s, won the 1990 MVP and by the end of the 1980s signed a 4-year contract making him the highest paid player in baseball.
Henderson was incredibly celebrated during his career. He was considered a jerk by some in the middle of his career, which led to the start of his odyssey of playing for so many different teams. He could only be underrated if he wasn't considered one of the best dozen or so outfielders of all time.
Boggs was voted by the fans to start in 11 straight All-Star games. You can definitely be overrated and get voted to start in a ton of all-star games but you certainly can't be underrated and be the leading vote getter for more than a decade.
As a diehard Yankee fan of the 1980s, the prevailing attitude was the "best" Yankee was Mattingly. And yet from 1984 to 1989 Rickey averaged a 6.0 oWAR and Mattingly 5.2. Clearly the relative ranking of Rickey and Mattingly changed as the years passed. Ultimately, the whole "overrated" / "underrated" argument is subjective, and more a fun game sports fans play. Some players can be underappreciated, but even then that is a relative judgment. If I - a no nothing teenager - knew Dwight Evans was a stud right fielder how can he be underrated / underappreciated?
Some of my favorite underrated position players: Manny Sanguillén, Steve Garvey, Joe Rudi, larry Bowa and gary Matthews. Of course this can go on and on.
That's a solid list with the exception of Garvey. He's the opposite of underrated, he's one of the most overrated, IMO, cause in spite of all those 200 hit seasons, he never got a sniff of the HOF.
Your list was by far and away more realistic. Everything you said about the great Willie Mays was on the money. How about A-Rod and Andre Dawson winning the MVP on last place teams? But I agree, around and about the 1964 era it was usually a player from the 1st place team. Heck, even Ron santo was better than Ken Boyer in 1964. I think the greatest MVP slight was Ted Williams.
As a Tigers fan, I had a LOT of appreciation for Lou Whitaker, and have spent the years without his being inducted in a state of perpetual low-grade outrage with annual flare-ups. And boy, were we glad to get Evans here in '84 - dude won us some games! (And generally scared opposing pitchers spitless when he came up in big minutes). Cannot fathom the lack of appreciation for the two of them. And I remember absolutely hating Kenny Lofton, because he routinely destroyed the Tigers. I think the only reason he's not in is lack of durability. When he was healthy, he was awesome. And he stopped being routinely healthy entirely too soon.
This particular blog post embodies everything that is great about Joe’s Blogs: a terrific story by Joe, talking about players from the 60’s to much more recent, having reference to MVP votes and Hall of Fame credentials (I mean this is the definition of stat oriented baseball nerds) along with a truly superb number of posts by Brilliant Readers. In addition to informative and interesting commentary on the names Joe discussed, they added to the whole discussion with other names: Steib, Robinson, Arky Vaughn, Chance, et al.
My 5 in no particular order: Sweet Lou, Dewey, Lofton, Willie Davis, Grich.
Most surprising addition to my list- Darrell Evans. He probably suffers, as noted much earlier, to being overshadowed as underrated by Dwight Evans.
Most surprising fact: Willie Davis did not just not get a Hall of Fame vote, he didn’t even get on the ballot. He must have really pissed off someone at the HOF or baseball writers organization.
Why I am so happy to be a subscriber. To be able to participate in something like this.
Lofton to me feels more underrated at this point than Lou Whitaker. So, yep, I'm just quibbling in the comments, but they have less than 7 WAR separating their careers and while there seem to be lots of vocal Whitaker boosters, the Lofton lobby seems strangely quiet.
If I have a #11, it might be Jim Edmonds. But I strongly believe the most underrated POSITION is catcher, and I think WAR doesn't boost them enough for what they do. So in a sense the most underrated player to me in an existential sense is any of the very good catchers who, because of of way the position limits your career and numbers, never even got rated in the first place.
To toot my own horn: I had Willie Davis as a highly underrated player. To my knowledge: he has not even appeared on the BBWAA ballot. THAT'S how underrated he is: he did not even merit inclusion to the BBWAA ballot. That's shocking. His case has, literally, never been debated. That's a shame.
I really like that last point. I was a huge Kenny Lofton fan as a kid, and I remember being so annoyed when Ichiro was getting celebrated in his rookie season. I would tell anyone who would listen, “Kenny Lofton used to do this all the time!”
Regarding Kenny: I remember in 1993, when George Brett retired, I went to his last game. In his speech, he (somewhat) jokingly pointed out a young Lofton (who had robbed 2 home runs from him on consecutive days) and said something like "Where's Kenny Lofton? I hate you Kenny."
The joke when we were kids was that the Indians were basically the farm team for the rest of the AL - particularly the Yankees and the Tigers. (See: Colavito, Rocky - he's the poster child, but there were so many).
By the way Joe, the link to the greatest 100 got me again. This time it’s for ME. Thanks!
Nettles.
Abreu to me has always been called underrated, which means there comes a point when he’s overrated. We’re at that point.
Ok as I understand the premise of this article, Joe is comparing WAR with MVP “support” as measured in votes? Wouldn’t Ted Williams be on that list? I am not saying he was underrated, same logic as Willie Mays. He won 2 MVPs. But should have won probably several more. Led the league in ops like 10 times. Won triple crown twice lost MVP both years. I can go on. Is the issue that he finished second some years so that’s close to winning? I think finishing second when you should have won is way worse and should count more than finishing 10th when you should have finished 4th or something. I wonder who should have won more MVPs, Teddy or Mays?
I would think Hall of Famers, let alone first ballot Hall of Famers should not be part of the discussion. Was Willie Mays more underrated than Indian Bob Johnson? Maybe, although being a household word and being known by many as the greatest player who ever lived would seem to indicate that he is not underrated despite having deserved more hardware when he played.
The reasoning is the player was not recognized for how exceptional they were. Rickey Henderson is an example. But Ricky tells you he was the greatest so we can only laugh. But he had the highest WAR, by far, in the 1980s. And Wade Boggs, another underated player, was second.
>>>> But he had the highest WAR, by far, in the 1980s.
Probably why he made 8 all-star games, had 5 top 10 finishes in the MVP voting in the 1980s, won the 1990 MVP and by the end of the 1980s signed a 4-year contract making him the highest paid player in baseball.
Henderson was incredibly celebrated during his career. He was considered a jerk by some in the middle of his career, which led to the start of his odyssey of playing for so many different teams. He could only be underrated if he wasn't considered one of the best dozen or so outfielders of all time.
Boggs was voted by the fans to start in 11 straight All-Star games. You can definitely be overrated and get voted to start in a ton of all-star games but you certainly can't be underrated and be the leading vote getter for more than a decade.
As a diehard Yankee fan of the 1980s, the prevailing attitude was the "best" Yankee was Mattingly. And yet from 1984 to 1989 Rickey averaged a 6.0 oWAR and Mattingly 5.2. Clearly the relative ranking of Rickey and Mattingly changed as the years passed. Ultimately, the whole "overrated" / "underrated" argument is subjective, and more a fun game sports fans play. Some players can be underappreciated, but even then that is a relative judgment. If I - a no nothing teenager - knew Dwight Evans was a stud right fielder how can he be underrated / underappreciated?
Ten more position players for the list, in alphabetical order
Sal Bando
Cesar Cedeno
Doug DeCinces
Chet Lemon
John Olerud
Vada Pinson
Reggie Smith
Gene Tenace
Tim Wallach
Jim Wynn
Thumbs up for Toy Cannon and Eli.
Where does Al Kaline rank on your list of under rated ball players?
Isn't it difficult to be under-rated if you're Mr. Tiger? I"d argue that of the all-time greats, Stan Musial is probably the guy.
Ernie hit 277 dingers as a SS. Only Cal has more.
Some of my favorite underrated position players: Manny Sanguillén, Steve Garvey, Joe Rudi, larry Bowa and gary Matthews. Of course this can go on and on.
That's a solid list with the exception of Garvey. He's the opposite of underrated, he's one of the most overrated, IMO, cause in spite of all those 200 hit seasons, he never got a sniff of the HOF.
Willie.
Bobby.
Buddy
Eddie
Kenny
and Keith.
I'll take the team with
Mike
Hank
Frank
Fred
Stan
and Carl
Any day.
Joe,
Your list was by far and away more realistic. Everything you said about the great Willie Mays was on the money. How about A-Rod and Andre Dawson winning the MVP on last place teams? But I agree, around and about the 1964 era it was usually a player from the 1st place team. Heck, even Ron santo was better than Ken Boyer in 1964. I think the greatest MVP slight was Ted Williams.
As a Tigers fan, I had a LOT of appreciation for Lou Whitaker, and have spent the years without his being inducted in a state of perpetual low-grade outrage with annual flare-ups. And boy, were we glad to get Evans here in '84 - dude won us some games! (And generally scared opposing pitchers spitless when he came up in big minutes). Cannot fathom the lack of appreciation for the two of them. And I remember absolutely hating Kenny Lofton, because he routinely destroyed the Tigers. I think the only reason he's not in is lack of durability. When he was healthy, he was awesome. And he stopped being routinely healthy entirely too soon.
This particular blog post embodies everything that is great about Joe’s Blogs: a terrific story by Joe, talking about players from the 60’s to much more recent, having reference to MVP votes and Hall of Fame credentials (I mean this is the definition of stat oriented baseball nerds) along with a truly superb number of posts by Brilliant Readers. In addition to informative and interesting commentary on the names Joe discussed, they added to the whole discussion with other names: Steib, Robinson, Arky Vaughn, Chance, et al.
My 5 in no particular order: Sweet Lou, Dewey, Lofton, Willie Davis, Grich.
Most surprising addition to my list- Darrell Evans. He probably suffers, as noted much earlier, to being overshadowed as underrated by Dwight Evans.
Most surprising fact: Willie Davis did not just not get a Hall of Fame vote, he didn’t even get on the ballot. He must have really pissed off someone at the HOF or baseball writers organization.
Why I am so happy to be a subscriber. To be able to participate in something like this.
Lofton to me feels more underrated at this point than Lou Whitaker. So, yep, I'm just quibbling in the comments, but they have less than 7 WAR separating their careers and while there seem to be lots of vocal Whitaker boosters, the Lofton lobby seems strangely quiet.
If I have a #11, it might be Jim Edmonds. But I strongly believe the most underrated POSITION is catcher, and I think WAR doesn't boost them enough for what they do. So in a sense the most underrated player to me in an existential sense is any of the very good catchers who, because of of way the position limits your career and numbers, never even got rated in the first place.
Comparing Bobby Abreu's AT BATS to the BATAAN DEATH MARCH should get you banned for life from writting on any platform.
To toot my own horn: I had Willie Davis as a highly underrated player. To my knowledge: he has not even appeared on the BBWAA ballot. THAT'S how underrated he is: he did not even merit inclusion to the BBWAA ballot. That's shocking. His case has, literally, never been debated. That's a shame.
https://www.coveringthecorner.com/2018/12/21/18151665/the-forgotten-centerfield?_gl=1*cy8fx9*_ga*MTQxMjg0Mzg4NS4xNjY2NjY0MjI4*_ga_2M5GYNY1YS*MTY3Mjk3MTI3My4xODQuMS4xNjcyOTcxMzg0LjEwLjAuMA..&_ga=2.27149309.170849681.1672719933-1412843885.1666664228
I also had Kenny Lofton on that list, here is what I wrote about him. Yes, I do believe Kenny Lofton was basically Ichiro Suzuki
https://www.coveringthecorner.com/2020/11/17/21572646/kenny-lofton-was-basically-ichiro-suzuki?_gl=1*urfkae*_ga*MTQxMjg0Mzg4NS4xNjY2NjY0MjI4*_ga_2M5GYNY1YS*MTY3Mjk3MTI3My4xODQuMS4xNjcyOTcxOTI0LjQzLjAuMA..&_ga=2.31269247.170849681.1672719933-1412843885.1666664228
I really like that last point. I was a huge Kenny Lofton fan as a kid, and I remember being so annoyed when Ichiro was getting celebrated in his rookie season. I would tell anyone who would listen, “Kenny Lofton used to do this all the time!”
Regarding Kenny: I remember in 1993, when George Brett retired, I went to his last game. In his speech, he (somewhat) jokingly pointed out a young Lofton (who had robbed 2 home runs from him on consecutive days) and said something like "Where's Kenny Lofton? I hate you Kenny."
Interesting how many of your list came through Cleveland at some point in their careers.
The joke when we were kids was that the Indians were basically the farm team for the rest of the AL - particularly the Yankees and the Tigers. (See: Colavito, Rocky - he's the poster child, but there were so many).