Please resist the standard disclaimer, such as: we can’t judge Lefty Grove because he pitched before integration. Yes, we can judge him. Analytics are *made* to address this kind of question, and to provide reasonable answers. There’s a lack of logic here. You’re assuming that the level of MLB competition was lower in Grove’s day (a good assumption, I’d say), but then you assume that nothing can be done to adjust for this lower level of competition, which simply isn’t true. BTW, after adjustments, Grove is still a great pitcher.
You can buy the All State teams if you purchase Action PC Baseball. I have no affiliation with Action PC Baseball but I own it and have owned several other Baseball Simulations, including, but not limited to Strat-O-Matic, Pursue the Pennant, Diamond Mind Baseball, Lee Haffner Baseball, RBI Baseball, MLB, Earl Weaver Baseball, and APBA. No game comes close to Action PC Baseball. when it comes to realism and the amount of strategy available to utilize, Ball Parks, Weather, Night and Day, time of the year, i.e. moth and average temperature per day based on geographic location. There is a lot more I can mention as well. No offense to Strat-O-Matic, but their game is simply nowhere deep as as Action PC Baseball. For example, Start-O-Matic has (5) ratings for Fielding. Action PC Baseball has (10), not counting (10) separate ratings for throwing arms. Action PC Baseball also rates each season in baseball history pursuant to what occurred, inclusive of how stats were affected by bigger parks, fence length and height, as well as the evolution of the baseball itself. Different balls. do have a major impact on the game. For example, take the All Time records for most Home Runs per season for all of Major League Baseball. Did you know that the top three seasons for Home Runs were all in 2019.? That was the season when Pitchers were complaining that the balls were so slippery, and the stitching failed to rise above the ball, thereby making it extremely difficult to grip, ergo, control. Action PC Baseball also lists the out pitch for every pitcher in history (their best & most reliable pitch). Their All-State teams have at least 40 players per team, and includes Cuba and Canada.
So can you play these same games and see how the results differ? Obviously there would be some differences just from randomness, but it would be interesting to see if any patterns emerge.
If anyone from Strat-o-matic is lurking in the comments ... how easy/difficult would it be to assemble this at home? I have the HOF version from 6 or 7 or 8 years ago, so, I have many of the players who will appear in this tournament, but, none for more recent inductees and non-HOFers.
I wonder how big of an advantage it is for pitchers in an earlier era since you are going with one pitcher. I haven't played Strat-o-matic in many years, but I seem to rmember endurance rating for pitchers.
I still love this so much. I wish it was real. Rooting hard for my boys from California. I don't think we're going to see T. Gwynn go 0-3 with a strikeout again...
As a native Marylander whose parents were from Louisiana (and I want to college on La.), this was a matchup that hit me right in the feels. As an LSU guy, I was going to complain about the lack of Alvin Dark at shortstop, the first Tiger baseball great, only to realize he was born in Oklahoma, And that's why this site is the best.
Though that would lead to the next bracket, which college has given us the best MLB roster? Doing no research whatsoever, I have to guess it is either Texas (anchored by Clemens) or USC (Seaver and the Big Unit)
As a Columbia grad I’d love to claim him, but Koufax attended (but didn’t graduate from) Cincinnati--he enrolled in night courses at Columbia after signed by the Dodgers. Not sure that counts as Columbia having produced him in the way UT produced Clemens.
He did, albeit moved to 3B due to a long jam at 2B. See today's post.
They are a little short on current players with only Pete Harnish among players since 1960 who have even 50 games in the majors but during deadball they could count on some good innings from Ed Walsh. Their full team is here: https://www.baseball-reference.com/schools/index.cgi?key_school=c0ead9dd
I am from Florida. I originally assumed Florida would make it easily but there are like ZERO old time greats born in Florida. I still think we make it but probably the lower half. And here is my Florida team -
Lf Tim Raines
Cf Andre Dawson
Rf Gary Sheffield
1b Fred McGriff
2b Robby Thompson - over David Eckstein?
SS Pop Lloyd (Negro Leagues)
3b Chipper Jones
C Charles Johnson over Mike Stanley
SP Steve Carlton!! Best thing about this team.
I would like to get Manny Machado on the field somehow- maybe at 2b?
other starters in case we make the playoffs (and the 7 peak year thing helps a lot here)
Mike Hampton
Dwight Gooden
Zack Greinke
Jacob deGrom
Chris Sale
Joe, you know you want Zack pitching in this tournament 🙂
I looked at Negro League players as you can see with Pop Lloyd. I just didn’t feel like Bucks playing career was as good as McGriffs. Obviously his overall impact on baseball was outstanding and went well beyond his playing career. How about we leave McGriff at first and make Buck the manager / GM / face of the franchise?
I meant to put Hal McRae as DH. I tried to have positional integrity so I feel like the DH needs to have played at DH. Otherwise I would go with Manny Machado. Or maybe Boog Powell.
In the limited data available from the superstar researchers at Seamheads, Lloyd played more 2B than SS. But since that data only starts when he is in his late 30s, that is obviously to be taken with a grain of salt and he is better known as a SS. However if we are trying to get Machado onto the field, he has played some short.
McGriff and O’Neill were similar in value if different in type. Long time very good players, we’ll liked in the industry, but rarely superstar level. Crime Dog did it through power and patience while Buck was a high average, good fielder akin to Mark Grace. Not that I’d fight you to the death over it, but I would have the former at DH and play both.
Edit: McGriff played DH for roughly a seasons worth of games. Plus since Joe started this exercise by putting Ted Williams at DH, I think it fair to have anyone there.
Ok fair enough. So a lineup with Lloyd at 2b, Machado at SS, McGriff at DH, and Buck at 1b is better.
But I do have to point out that Boog Powell and Steve Garvey were born in Florida. I know this is starting to seem like I am against Buck and I am not. Maybe I am too focused on the numbers but I just don’t see Buck THE PLAYER as Floridas best 1b option.
Another option would be King Richard Lundy at SS (lifetime.330 hitter in Negro Leagues and regarded as the second best SS behind Pop Lloyd). So let’s totally redo it:
Lf Tim Raines
Cf Andre Dawson
Rf Gary Sheffield
1b Chipper Jones
2b Pop Lloyd
SS King Richard Lundy
3b Manny Machado
C Charles Johnson but close over Mike Stanley
DH Fred McGriff
SP Steve Carlton
Now that’s a better lineup. Excellent in the field and at the plate. But I feel like I am skirting the rules since several guys are not playing their primary positions. Never saw either play but from what I have read I bet Lundy and Lloyd could be a very special double play combo.
Absolute nitpick that doesn't move the discussion forward, but who am I if not a nitpicker?
I'd guess that Devil Wells is more often regarded as the #2 NeL shortstop. Not that this is conclusive, but Wells is in Cooperstown while Lundy is not. The former played longer and probably was a better hitter. Shame that we can't really know, but that is also part of the beautiful mystery.
Not that the Oklahoma born Wells is qualified for *this* team, but can you imagine him in a clubhouse with Sheffield and Carlton? Now that would be one combustible group.
I keep wanting to pick that 1st upset but I don’t think it’s happening in this matchup Maryland is too strong. Louisiana Lightning offers a fighting chance but I gotta go with Lefty and the Babe.
I penalize in cross-era discussions the dudes who only had to pitch or hit against White guys who didnt exercise, and let's face it, the converse is true about the Negro Leagues. But I agree about Grove, and guys like Judy Johnson. The best of the best in MLB, Negro Leagues, anywhere... they could play anywhere, anytime. (Babe Ruth and Josh Gibson might need a couple seasons to figure out today's sliders and heat, but they'd get there.)(EDIT: Babe Ruth would need zero time "figure(ing) out" todays "sliders," so long as they're served on a bun.)
Think about how much better baseball would have been with the Black players on the diamond? Jackie Robinson was preceded in major league baseball as the first African-American player by Catcher Moses Fleetwood Walker and his brother, Welday Walker, an outfielder. They were the first African American baseball players in major league history in the early 1880s. They played for the Toledo Blue Stockings of the American Association, which was once considered a major league. This ended during the Great Depression in 1884. When unemployed workers vented their frustration and anger at African-Americans, because they were paid to play baseball, while white men had no jobs. This occurred before there were unemployment benefits, which made the uneducated disgruntled masses angrier. They directed their anger at black baseball players by attacking them by throwing bottles, rocks, bricks, and anything else capable of causing injury. Police at the ballpark turned a blind eye to these rampaging spectators. In an effort to quell this daily violence the Commissioner of the American Association decreed that no new contracts would be offerred to black baseball players. A grandfather's Clause allowed the existing black players to continue to play until retirement. The phrase 'Black Balled" likely originated from these circumstances. The Grandfather Clause proved to provide any relief to protect the African American players from the daily acts of violence, thereby driving every black player into premature retirement from the American Association. The one exception was Fleetwood Walker. As a catcher, Walker had the added protection of being equpped with 'The tools of ignorance.' Walker received even greater security from his position. A catcher is required to be in the close proximity of the Umpire and the player in the batter's box. This natural juxtaposition provided an island of security around Home Plate for Walker that no other black player enjoyed. Any spectator caught launching missiles toward the vicinity of the Umpire was guaranteed summary ejection from the Ball Park. Fleetwood Walker played from April 1, 1884 until the end of the season on September 4, 1884. Walker's security evaporated at the end of the season as the calls for segregation proved to be too much of a financial consequence to the Toledo ball club's existence. It would be sixty-four years later until Jackie Robinson broke the color line in 1947, while winning the Rookie of Year in the National League in the process.
I think you have misattributed the de facto ban to Ban Johnson. Johnson was president of the Western Association which became the American League at the turn of the century. He was never involved in the NL. The de facto ban of black players started earlier with - among many - Cap Anson refusing to play integrated teams.
Not really on point but Mike Lynch, the guy behind Seamheads, the cite that originally published Gary Ashwill, et al, great statistical research cited by MLB in officially recognizing the NeL, wrote a book on Johnson and his feuds with Harry Frazee, the BoSox owner who sold Babe Ruth.
You are correct. I realized this after I posted my comment and have since corrected it. Thank you for your correction,. Yes, it was indeed Cap Anson, who threatened to forfeit a game against Toledo, but begrudgingly played, but not without using the racial N-word slur.
That is one horrendous middle infield that Louisiana is throwing out there. Wayne Causey and Connie Ryan? Their combined WAR (not that WAR is the be all end all) is about 26. Cupid Childs, the second base "hole" on the Maryland team had a career WAR of 44 all by himself. Not sure Louisiana can get past their middle infield.. . .
I wonder who the worst state would be. Alaska would have to play pitchers as position players just to field a team, but they also have Curt Schilling on the mound. So, maybe not them.
Wyoming also has Tom Browning as well. Still think it is Montana's chance to unshine. I am not a baseball historian but they only have 2 players that even made the 10 year eligibility criteria. Dave McNally was before my time but looks like he is the pitcher and John Lowenstein is the hitter.
Does anyone else here play stratomatic online? It is a lot of fun. I have ran a few Joe Posnanski Baseball 100 leagues where you build teams around players on his list. Can't recommend start online enough.
This keeps getting better. Could the next tournament be the winning state representing the US in a world World Series? Not sure what you would do with Puerto Rico, but if you let them be the US territory entrant, then maybe add a couple other countries (DR? Cuba? Japan?) maybe that works?
Please resist the standard disclaimer, such as: we can’t judge Lefty Grove because he pitched before integration. Yes, we can judge him. Analytics are *made* to address this kind of question, and to provide reasonable answers. There’s a lack of logic here. You’re assuming that the level of MLB competition was lower in Grove’s day (a good assumption, I’d say), but then you assume that nothing can be done to adjust for this lower level of competition, which simply isn’t true. BTW, after adjustments, Grove is still a great pitcher.
You can buy the All State teams if you purchase Action PC Baseball. I have no affiliation with Action PC Baseball but I own it and have owned several other Baseball Simulations, including, but not limited to Strat-O-Matic, Pursue the Pennant, Diamond Mind Baseball, Lee Haffner Baseball, RBI Baseball, MLB, Earl Weaver Baseball, and APBA. No game comes close to Action PC Baseball. when it comes to realism and the amount of strategy available to utilize, Ball Parks, Weather, Night and Day, time of the year, i.e. moth and average temperature per day based on geographic location. There is a lot more I can mention as well. No offense to Strat-O-Matic, but their game is simply nowhere deep as as Action PC Baseball. For example, Start-O-Matic has (5) ratings for Fielding. Action PC Baseball has (10), not counting (10) separate ratings for throwing arms. Action PC Baseball also rates each season in baseball history pursuant to what occurred, inclusive of how stats were affected by bigger parks, fence length and height, as well as the evolution of the baseball itself. Different balls. do have a major impact on the game. For example, take the All Time records for most Home Runs per season for all of Major League Baseball. Did you know that the top three seasons for Home Runs were all in 2019.? That was the season when Pitchers were complaining that the balls were so slippery, and the stitching failed to rise above the ball, thereby making it extremely difficult to grip, ergo, control. Action PC Baseball also lists the out pitch for every pitcher in history (their best & most reliable pitch). Their All-State teams have at least 40 players per team, and includes Cuba and Canada.
So can you play these same games and see how the results differ? Obviously there would be some differences just from randomness, but it would be interesting to see if any patterns emerge.
If anyone from Strat-o-matic is lurking in the comments ... how easy/difficult would it be to assemble this at home? I have the HOF version from 6 or 7 or 8 years ago, so, I have many of the players who will appear in this tournament, but, none for more recent inductees and non-HOFers.
I wonder how big of an advantage it is for pitchers in an earlier era since you are going with one pitcher. I haven't played Strat-o-matic in many years, but I seem to rmember endurance rating for pitchers.
I still love this so much. I wish it was real. Rooting hard for my boys from California. I don't think we're going to see T. Gwynn go 0-3 with a strikeout again...
As a native Marylander whose parents were from Louisiana (and I want to college on La.), this was a matchup that hit me right in the feels. As an LSU guy, I was going to complain about the lack of Alvin Dark at shortstop, the first Tiger baseball great, only to realize he was born in Oklahoma, And that's why this site is the best.
Though that would lead to the next bracket, which college has given us the best MLB roster? Doing no research whatsoever, I have to guess it is either Texas (anchored by Clemens) or USC (Seaver and the Big Unit)
Columbia has a short roster but Eddie Collins, Lou Gehrig, Monte Ward and Sandy Koufax would shine.
As a Columbia grad I’d love to claim him, but Koufax attended (but didn’t graduate from) Cincinnati--he enrolled in night courses at Columbia after signed by the Dodgers. Not sure that counts as Columbia having produced him in the way UT produced Clemens.
Wow, what about Fordham? I only know about Frankie Frisch. Hopefully, he made the New York roster.
He did, albeit moved to 3B due to a long jam at 2B. See today's post.
They are a little short on current players with only Pete Harnish among players since 1960 who have even 50 games in the majors but during deadball they could count on some good innings from Ed Walsh. Their full team is here: https://www.baseball-reference.com/schools/index.cgi?key_school=c0ead9dd
Different eras. Or we need to take some UT credit away and give it to San Jacinto Junior College for Clemens.
Plus I like the trivia that only two colleges have produced two 100 bWAR players: USC and Columbia and I don’t want to get hung up in definitions. 😉
I am from Florida. I originally assumed Florida would make it easily but there are like ZERO old time greats born in Florida. I still think we make it but probably the lower half. And here is my Florida team -
Lf Tim Raines
Cf Andre Dawson
Rf Gary Sheffield
1b Fred McGriff
2b Robby Thompson - over David Eckstein?
SS Pop Lloyd (Negro Leagues)
3b Chipper Jones
C Charles Johnson over Mike Stanley
SP Steve Carlton!! Best thing about this team.
I would like to get Manny Machado on the field somehow- maybe at 2b?
other starters in case we make the playoffs (and the 7 peak year thing helps a lot here)
Mike Hampton
Dwight Gooden
Zack Greinke
Jacob deGrom
Chris Sale
Joe, you know you want Zack pitching in this tournament 🙂
Put Buck O’Neil in at first and let Crime Dog DH
I looked at Negro League players as you can see with Pop Lloyd. I just didn’t feel like Bucks playing career was as good as McGriffs. Obviously his overall impact on baseball was outstanding and went well beyond his playing career. How about we leave McGriff at first and make Buck the manager / GM / face of the franchise?
I meant to put Hal McRae as DH. I tried to have positional integrity so I feel like the DH needs to have played at DH. Otherwise I would go with Manny Machado. Or maybe Boog Powell.
In the limited data available from the superstar researchers at Seamheads, Lloyd played more 2B than SS. But since that data only starts when he is in his late 30s, that is obviously to be taken with a grain of salt and he is better known as a SS. However if we are trying to get Machado onto the field, he has played some short.
McGriff and O’Neill were similar in value if different in type. Long time very good players, we’ll liked in the industry, but rarely superstar level. Crime Dog did it through power and patience while Buck was a high average, good fielder akin to Mark Grace. Not that I’d fight you to the death over it, but I would have the former at DH and play both.
Edit: McGriff played DH for roughly a seasons worth of games. Plus since Joe started this exercise by putting Ted Williams at DH, I think it fair to have anyone there.
Ok fair enough. So a lineup with Lloyd at 2b, Machado at SS, McGriff at DH, and Buck at 1b is better.
But I do have to point out that Boog Powell and Steve Garvey were born in Florida. I know this is starting to seem like I am against Buck and I am not. Maybe I am too focused on the numbers but I just don’t see Buck THE PLAYER as Floridas best 1b option.
Another option would be King Richard Lundy at SS (lifetime.330 hitter in Negro Leagues and regarded as the second best SS behind Pop Lloyd). So let’s totally redo it:
Lf Tim Raines
Cf Andre Dawson
Rf Gary Sheffield
1b Chipper Jones
2b Pop Lloyd
SS King Richard Lundy
3b Manny Machado
C Charles Johnson but close over Mike Stanley
DH Fred McGriff
SP Steve Carlton
Now that’s a better lineup. Excellent in the field and at the plate. But I feel like I am skirting the rules since several guys are not playing their primary positions. Never saw either play but from what I have read I bet Lundy and Lloyd could be a very special double play combo.
Pitchers would stay the same.
Absolute nitpick that doesn't move the discussion forward, but who am I if not a nitpicker?
I'd guess that Devil Wells is more often regarded as the #2 NeL shortstop. Not that this is conclusive, but Wells is in Cooperstown while Lundy is not. The former played longer and probably was a better hitter. Shame that we can't really know, but that is also part of the beautiful mystery.
Not that the Oklahoma born Wells is qualified for *this* team, but can you imagine him in a clubhouse with Sheffield and Carlton? Now that would be one combustible group.
I keep wanting to pick that 1st upset but I don’t think it’s happening in this matchup Maryland is too strong. Louisiana Lightning offers a fighting chance but I gotta go with Lefty and the Babe.
Damn, these are fun!
I penalize in cross-era discussions the dudes who only had to pitch or hit against White guys who didnt exercise, and let's face it, the converse is true about the Negro Leagues. But I agree about Grove, and guys like Judy Johnson. The best of the best in MLB, Negro Leagues, anywhere... they could play anywhere, anytime. (Babe Ruth and Josh Gibson might need a couple seasons to figure out today's sliders and heat, but they'd get there.)(EDIT: Babe Ruth would need zero time "figure(ing) out" todays "sliders," so long as they're served on a bun.)
Think about how much better baseball would have been with the Black players on the diamond? Jackie Robinson was preceded in major league baseball as the first African-American player by Catcher Moses Fleetwood Walker and his brother, Welday Walker, an outfielder. They were the first African American baseball players in major league history in the early 1880s. They played for the Toledo Blue Stockings of the American Association, which was once considered a major league. This ended during the Great Depression in 1884. When unemployed workers vented their frustration and anger at African-Americans, because they were paid to play baseball, while white men had no jobs. This occurred before there were unemployment benefits, which made the uneducated disgruntled masses angrier. They directed their anger at black baseball players by attacking them by throwing bottles, rocks, bricks, and anything else capable of causing injury. Police at the ballpark turned a blind eye to these rampaging spectators. In an effort to quell this daily violence the Commissioner of the American Association decreed that no new contracts would be offerred to black baseball players. A grandfather's Clause allowed the existing black players to continue to play until retirement. The phrase 'Black Balled" likely originated from these circumstances. The Grandfather Clause proved to provide any relief to protect the African American players from the daily acts of violence, thereby driving every black player into premature retirement from the American Association. The one exception was Fleetwood Walker. As a catcher, Walker had the added protection of being equpped with 'The tools of ignorance.' Walker received even greater security from his position. A catcher is required to be in the close proximity of the Umpire and the player in the batter's box. This natural juxtaposition provided an island of security around Home Plate for Walker that no other black player enjoyed. Any spectator caught launching missiles toward the vicinity of the Umpire was guaranteed summary ejection from the Ball Park. Fleetwood Walker played from April 1, 1884 until the end of the season on September 4, 1884. Walker's security evaporated at the end of the season as the calls for segregation proved to be too much of a financial consequence to the Toledo ball club's existence. It would be sixty-four years later until Jackie Robinson broke the color line in 1947, while winning the Rookie of Year in the National League in the process.
I think you have misattributed the de facto ban to Ban Johnson. Johnson was president of the Western Association which became the American League at the turn of the century. He was never involved in the NL. The de facto ban of black players started earlier with - among many - Cap Anson refusing to play integrated teams.
Not really on point but Mike Lynch, the guy behind Seamheads, the cite that originally published Gary Ashwill, et al, great statistical research cited by MLB in officially recognizing the NeL, wrote a book on Johnson and his feuds with Harry Frazee, the BoSox owner who sold Babe Ruth.
You are correct. I realized this after I posted my comment and have since corrected it. Thank you for your correction,. Yes, it was indeed Cap Anson, who threatened to forfeit a game against Toledo, but begrudgingly played, but not without using the racial N-word slur.
I don’t know whether you care, Joe, but PA has five in the RBIs column for the box score.
I love the mini rabbit holes, fun facts, n trivia notes. They are the seasonings that elevate the main courses of the posts n recaps.
That is one horrendous middle infield that Louisiana is throwing out there. Wayne Causey and Connie Ryan? Their combined WAR (not that WAR is the be all end all) is about 26. Cupid Childs, the second base "hole" on the Maryland team had a career WAR of 44 all by himself. Not sure Louisiana can get past their middle infield.. . .
I wonder who the worst state would be. Alaska would have to play pitchers as position players just to field a team, but they also have Curt Schilling on the mound. So, maybe not them.
Montana has to be a #1 seed.
How about Wyoming? Brandon Nimmo plays the whole field...
He's not exactly going to strike fear into Team California, but Mike Deveraux was a serviceable outfielder for a decade or so.
Wyoming also has Tom Browning as well. Still think it is Montana's chance to unshine. I am not a baseball historian but they only have 2 players that even made the 10 year eligibility criteria. Dave McNally was before my time but looks like he is the pitcher and John Lowenstein is the hitter.
Pretty wild that Maryland has two Babes on the team.
Does anyone else here play stratomatic online? It is a lot of fun. I have ran a few Joe Posnanski Baseball 100 leagues where you build teams around players on his list. Can't recommend start online enough.
This keeps getting better. Could the next tournament be the winning state representing the US in a world World Series? Not sure what you would do with Puerto Rico, but if you let them be the US territory entrant, then maybe add a couple other countries (DR? Cuba? Japan?) maybe that works?
I almost suggested that Joe allow foreign countries to enter. DR and PR would probably have great teams